How Do Auction Houses Grade Violins?

[GeorgeH]

In the spirit of @martin swan's “Guide to Auction Violin Terminology,” I’d like to inquire as to how auction houses distinguish between:

A Violin: 

A Good Violin:

A Very Good Violin:

A Fine Violin:

A Very Fine Violin:

Bonus:

An Interesting Violin:

[martin swan]

What about “Property of a Gentleman “?

or “a fine and interesting violin” ...!

[deans]

10 minutes ago, martin swan said:

What about “Property of a Gentleman “?

My favorite.

[martin swan]

I think it’s meant to imply that the owner is/was a person of exquisite taste and unimpeachable morals ...

[deans]

How about "owned by the most interesting man in the world"

[The Violin Beautiful]

I don’t work for an auction house, but I interpret the terms this way:

If it’s only listed as a violin it means it was simply made by a particular person or shop. Doesn’t guarantee any level of quality. Most at this level are on the bottom end of the spectrum. 

A good violin is one that’s made with good construction technique but may have some issues or may have some quirks that make it less than fine. A very good one is well made and at a higher level, but some small detail still holds it back from being a fine violin. 

A fine violin is one that is expertly made and shows a skilled sense in executing the model. All aspects are carried out professionally, so any serious player should find it a serviceable instrument. A very fine one shows an extra amount of mastery and may sound better than a fine example. It’s one step below excellent, which is the highest rank, reserved for only a few violins. 

Interesting means that it has some  features or historical connections that make it appealing to a collector. Doesn’t guarantee any level of quality, merely its value as a curiosity.

[Violadamore]

7 hours ago, martin swan said:

I think it’s meant to imply that the owner is/was a person of exquisite taste and unimpeachable morals ...

Being familiar with historical romances, I took it to mean he was a libertine who also cheated at cards and defaulted his debts. 

[Violadamore]

6 hours ago, deans said:

How about "owned by the most interesting man in the world"

He's sold a lot of them. 

[martin swan]

3 hours ago, Violadamore said:

Being familiar with historical romances, I took it to mean he was a libertine who also cheated at cards and defaulted his debts. 

And “property of a Lady”?

[matesic]

I asked an employee of the auction house this question when I paid for my "good" violin. The answer was a smile and two coughs

[GeorgeH]

@The Violin Beautiful

Thanks for taking a stab at definitions!

There are anonymous workshop violins that would easily meet your definitions of "Good" and "Fine," but I can't see them ever being classified as such in an auction. And I don't think "sound" ever enters into the Auction House classifications.

[Violadamore]

7 hours ago, martin swan said:

And “property of a Lady”?

The violin is probably a previously unidentified Stradivarius, and only a cad would suggest otherwise. 

[duane88]

21 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

Bonus:

An Interesting Violin:

I always have a look at violins designated as such. 

To me, this means: 1-We don't know what it is, do you?, or 2-Possibly Italian, but possibly American, but we still don't know.

 

I think that good and fine enter as part of a relative assessment of something like 'better than the last three we sold' or 'the best we've seen in years'.

[Televet]

At the risk of boring everyone to death with Tarisio quotes. Here id what their cataloging practice says:

"Lots are cataloged according to the following terms:
◦Fine: of exceptional materials and/or workmanship
◦Important: of historically significant provenance or authorship
◦Good: of good quality materials and workmanship
◦Rare: a work of high quality that is unique or unusual or difficult to find
◦Interesting: a work that invites speculation but lacks a definite attribution
◦Contemporary: by a living maker or believed to be less than 30 years old"
 

[Violadamore]

3 hours ago, Televet said:

◦ Interesting: a work that invites speculation but lacks a definite attribution

One may speculate about all manner of things, such as the possible character and psychological imperfections of the sellers...............

[GeorgeH]

Property of Albert Einstein?

"Property of a Genius" = $500,000

[Felefar]

I read «property of a gentleman» as meaning «played by a hopeless amateur not more than four times per year».

And I have an «interesting violin»: The back and ribs are at least four different kinds of wood. I will have to set it up for playing some day, maybe it SOUNDS interesting, too?

 

Being somewhat cynical I also believe that a fine violin must be pretty but may sound like cardboard, while a good violin might actually BE cardboard but SOUNDS good.

[reg]

Bromptons are offering many 'interesting' violins, but also a 'very interesting' violin from £2000?

[Andreas Preuss]

On 5/11/2018 at 10:20 AM, GeorgeH said:

Property of Albert Einstein?

"Property of a Genius" = $500,000

Not property.

From the estate of Albert Einstein. 

 

 

But Einstein reminds me of a joke. 

We are in the year 2200 and brain transplants became possible. A customer comes into a clinic to choose a new brain. The doctor shows him 2 brains available. One is $1000000 and the other only $1000. So the customer asks why the price is so different. 'Well', says the doctor, 'the brain here for 1000 belonged to Einstein, the other for 1000000 belonged to a well known politician.' ' And why is the brain of Einstein so cheap???' 'For a very obvious reason', replies the doctor 'the brain of Einstein is used...'

[Andreas Preuss]

Just imagine you would read a catalog like this

Lot #1: Unknown

Lot #2:  Stinks like new

Lot #3: Couldn't figure it out

Lot #4: Heard the story that...

Lot #5: Sounds phony to us too

Lot #6: wasn't sold in the other auction

Lot #7: hang around in a shop for 20 years

Lot#8: Messed up by an apprentice

Lot #9: Looks fantastic but doesn't sound

Lot #10: No idea

 

etc.

[JacksonMaberry]

On 5/16/2018 at 9:17 AM, Andreas Preuss said:

Just imagine you would read a catalog like this

Lot #1: Unknown

Lot #2:  Stinks like new

Lot #3: Couldn't figure it out

Lot #4: Heard the story that...

Lot #5: Sounds phony to us too

Lot #6: wasn't sold in the other auction

Lot #7: hang around in a shop for 20 years

Lot#8: Messed up by an apprentice

Lot #9: Looks fantastic but doesn't sound

Lot #10: No idea

 

etc.

Looks like I'm starting a new auction house. 

[Violadamore]

On 5/16/2018 at 9:12 AM, Andreas Preuss said:

Not property.

From the estate of Albert Einstein. 

 

 

But Einstein reminds me of a joke. 

We are in the year 2200 and brain transplants became possible. A customer comes into a clinic to choose a new brain. The doctor shows him 2 brains available. One is $1000000 and the other only $1000. So the customer asks why the price is so different. 'Well', says the doctor, 'the brain here for 1000 belonged to Einstein, the other for 1000000 belonged to a well known politician.' ' And why is the brain of Einstein so cheap???' 'For a very obvious reason', replies the doctor 'the brain of Einstein is used...'

Like!! 

[Mark Neukirchen]

Here’s a Stainer on Tarisio described as fine, even though its top has been replaced. One might think that its fine designation would have fallen in the trash can along with its original top. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a beautiful instrument with historical importance, but is a violin with a replacement top still worthy of being referred to as fine?

https://tarisio.com/auctions/auction/lot/?csid=2198749184&cpid=3495804928&filter_key=

[The Violin Beautiful]

I think it depends on the quality of workmanship. If the violin’s other parts are intact and masterfully made and the replacement top is well made enough to retain the style and appearance of the original, I see no reason why it can’t be fine. However, I think the price of the instrument should reflect the loss of an essential original part in cases like this. 

[JacksonMaberry]

3 hours ago, Mark Neukirchen said:

Here’s a Stainer on Tarisio described as fine, even though its top has been replaced. One might think that its fine designation would have fallen in the trash can along with its original top. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a beautiful instrument with historical importance, but is a violin with a replacement top still worthy of being referred to as fine?

 

https://tarisio.com/auctions/auction/lot/?csid=2198749184&cpid=3495804928&filter_key=

 

It's an almost complete violin by one of the single greatest makers of the classic era of making, with an expertly made replacement belly. I would be shocked to see it listed as anything less than fine.