Pegbox crack

[ClefLover]

Over the past few weeks my A string peg has been slipping.  I thought it was typical climate fluctuations until today.  The peg no longer hold tension due to a crack traveling toward the scroll.  Is there a way to reinforce this from home? 

[jacobsaunders]

I do not know what „reinforce from home“ mesns. You will have to take it to a violin maker. The least invasive repair is to glue the crack and fit a spiral bushing, which will sure up the crack, then re-fit the peg. There are more invasive alternatives too

[ClefLover]

I was going to attempt a spiral bushing with brown paper, hot hide glue and a beer when finished.  Being my first attempt, I though I might check if it can be avoided with an easier method.  

[ClefLover]

How much should ream the peg and how many mm should the bushing extend to provide optimal stability?

[jacobsaunders]

10 minutes ago, ClefLover said:

I was going to attempt a spiral bushing with brown paper, hot hide glue and a beer when finished.  Being my first attempt, I though I might check if it can be avoided with an easier method.  

Start with the beer

[Wood Butcher]

Can brown paper really provide much strength in this scenario?
If the peg was enough to split several mm of pegbox wood, then how thick will your paper bushing need to be, in order to be stronger than the scroll was in the first place?

[ClefLover]

2 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

Can brown paper really provide much strength in this scenario?
If the peg was enough to split several mm of pegbox wood, then how thick will your paper bushing need to be, in order to be stronger than the scroll was in the first place?

My question exactly  

[Wood Butcher]

I think it would be better to use wood instead.

[jacobsaunders]

I must admit that I always do this repair with a maple shaving, and therefore can’t offer any help about Brown paper

[Blank face]

I used sometimes strong brown paper for minor spiral bushing at an otherwise undamaged pegbox, just in case the existing holes are slightly too wide, but not to hold a repaired crack. Maybe it's better to fill the pegholes completely and move the new a short way down south to have more strong wood, especially if it's not a "historic" violin. The existing hole seems to be too close to the volute anyway in my eyes, and lopsided.

[ClefLover]

1 minute ago, Blank face said:

I used sometimes strong brown paper for minor spiral bushing at an otherwise undamaged pegbox, just in case the existing holes are slightly too wide, but not to hold a repaired crack. Maybe it's better to fill the pegholes completely and move the new a short way down south to have more strong wood, especially if it's not a "historic" violin. The existing hole seems to be too close to the volute anyway in my eyes.

Great!  Will do!

[Wee B. Bridges]

1 hour ago, ClefLover said:

Over the past few weeks my A string peg has been slipping.  I thought it was typical climate fluctuations until today.  The peg no longer hold tension due to a crack traveling toward the scroll.  Is there a way to reinforce this from home? 

 

 

https://trianglestrings.com/reinforcing-cracked-pegbox-wall/

[GeorgeH]

I am having one repaired, and the luthier is using carbon-fiber rings. The crack I am having fixed runs between the base-side G-peg to the base-side E-peg hole. In the past, this would have been fixed with an internal cheek, but this method removes less wood and is less visible. 

[Blank face]

The plasic ring method is an enhancement of spiral bushing (in some way). In this case I'm assuming that the main problem is the placement of the peg, much too close to the end of the pegbox groove, and a lopsided direction of the peg. The consequence would be to change the position and orientation of the A peg holes (at least).

Could we see photos of the whole scroll, different views, to know if the assumption is right?

[HoGo]

12 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

Can brown paper really provide much strength in this scenario?
If the peg was enough to split several mm of pegbox wood, then how thick will your paper bushing need to be, in order to be stronger than the scroll was in the first place?

The brown paper is surprisingly strong when used as lamination and thoroughly soaked with glue. More conservative bowyers have used it for backing wooden bows instead of fiberglass. It may appear weak but the grain direction in the pegbox isn't all that favorable and that's why cracks occur. The direction of fibers in the paper will be mostly in desired direction to get strength. There is a thread on japanese paper which would be even stronger... perhaps that would be better choice

But of course straight wood shaving will be stronger in this case as ALL fibers will be aligned.

[ClefLover]

4 hours ago, Blank face said:

The plasic ring method is an enhancement of spiral bushing (in some way). In this case I'm assuming that the main problem is the placement of the peg, much too close to the end of the pegbox groove, and a lopsided direction of the peg. The consequence would be to change the position and orientation of the A peg holes (at least).

Could we see photos of the whole scroll, different views, to know if the assumption is right?

Yes, I will try to give a bigger picture.

[Mike_Danielson]

Let me make different suggestion--use a planetary gear peg since they do not have to be jammed into the pegbox. 

First glue the crack closed, then ream out hole and insert brown paper spiral bushing, and then ream back to where the gear peg will gently fit.  

 

Mike D

[JacksonMaberry]

4 minutes ago, Mike_Danielson said:

Let me make different suggestion--use a planetary gear peg since they do not have to be jammed into the pegbox. 

First glue the crack closed, then ream out hole and insert brown paper spiral bushing, and then ream back to where the gear peg will gently fit.  

 

Mike D

+1 to this idea. You'll still have to do a proper job of repairing the crack, but a wittner or perfection peg will prevent you from jamming the peg in and reopening it next time the climate tempts you. 

If you choose the peghed/perfection route, do use the small drop of glue suggested. It's easy enough to undo with heat later on if you wish, and if you don't, tensioning the string will pull the peg further in on it's threads and you risk splitting the box anew

[ClefLover]

12 hours ago, Blank face said:

The plasic ring method is an enhancement of spiral bushing (in some way). In this case I'm assuming that the main problem is the placement of the peg, much too close to the end of the pegbox groove, and a lopsided direction of the peg. The consequence would be to change the position and orientation of the A peg holes (at least).

Could we see photos of the whole scroll, different views, to know if the assumption is right?

Here is a broader picture.  I brought it to my luthier because I’m lazy and don’t trust my own “skills.”  I’m glad I did because he is going to do solid wood and necessary touch ups.  He said the violin is too nice for an amateur attempt, but I told him he was just being nice (about the violin), as I’m pretty sure it’s only worth is the fact that I like it.

 

[ClefLover]

[David Burgess]

37 minutes ago, ClefLover said:

Here is a broader picture.  I brought it to my luthier because I’m lazy and don’t trust my own “skills.”  I’m glad I did because he is going to do solid wood and necessary touch ups. 

 

A good spiral bushing is likely to end up with less stress on the crack than a solid bushing.

[Blank face]

23 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

A good spiral bushing is likely to end up with less stress on the crack than a solid bushing.

That's quite right if the position of the peg is adequate. Unfortunately the new photo doesn't answer this question. But I see another fine bright line below the A peg - is this a second crack?

From the first photo above I've got the impression that the peg is very, very close to the end of the pegbox groove, so that the pressure of the wound up string against the upper wall would crack the pegbox at the hole. The luthier who has seen it in person might know what's the best to do.

But now I'm curious to see more of the fiddle, the scroll looks interesting.

[ClefLover]

49 minutes ago, Blank face said:

That's quite right if the position of the peg is adequate. Unfortunately the new photo doesn't answer this question. But I see another fine bright line below the A peg - is this a second crack?

From the first photo above I've got the impression that the peg is very, very close to the end of the pegbox groove, so that the pressure of the wound up string against the upper wall would crack the pegbox at the hole. The luthier who has seen it in person might know what's the best to do.

But now I'm curious to see more of the fiddle, the scroll looks interesting.

What looks like a 2nd crack is actually just a scratch.  My luthier also said a “composite” bushing might be the way to go but he wanted to determine after he glues the cracks with fish glue.  BTW, I like that you like my scroll!  I get used to seeing it all the time so I just find it annoying and ugly. 

[ClefLover]

I like to say that my scroll looks rather Markfrenchtalian

[nathan slobodkin]

Peg box cracks are a real pain and if the repairs fail you are often going to find the situation deteriorating even more. For sure a spiral bushing is a good idea and much stronger  than plain wood. However if the hole is in the wrong place then the crack should be repaired with strongest hide glue or isinglass, the original hole filled with a traditional bushing carefully fitted so as not to open the crack and then a new hole drilled in a more advantageous place  so the peg can be refitted with a spiral bushing to resist the pressure of the peg in use.

There are  different ways to make compound or spiral bushings but the point is to have a ring that doesn't expand when the peg is pushed in. Test them by pushing a mandrel into a loose ring (not in the peg box just the ring!) and trying to rupture the ring. You will easily be able to judge if the material you are using is up to the job.

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