How tight should a sound post be

[Victor Roman]

5 hours ago, Michael Darnton said:

The absolutely worst example of this fixation on #1 that I ever saw was a kid playing single notes for several seconds each and grading them while Dad wrote the grades down. Every note on four or five instruments. I guess the one with the highest total won. Never was a single line of actual music played. It wasn't my customer so I didn't have to hang around for the answers.

Mr. Darnton, there is nothing wrong with what the "kid" was doing if he does not later ignore all the other aspects you mentioned and ends up with an unplayable violin, albeit one with a great "voice"  Music starts, for many people, with the quality of the note. And for others the beauty inherent in a note is less rewarding than "global" aspects like rhythm, musicality, dramatism etc. 

[Mark Norfleet]

On 10/31/2024 at 4:14 PM, Chris Anderson, PhD said:

CA:So I moved the post back to the optimum position…

MN:Can you please share where that is?!  I’ve been looking for it for over 50 years and have yet to find it.

CA: I am unsure if you are making a joke

I was not.  You wrote that you moved the post to the optimum position, and the prospect that there was one singular optimum position intrigued me.  I'm always wondering what I'm missing and what possibilities there might be for me to improve the playing experience of those for whom I work.

[David Burgess]

2 hours ago, Mark Norfleet said:

I'm always wondering what I'm missing and what possibilities there might be for me to improve the playing experience of those for whom I work.

That's why you need to take an educational course from "master" Edgar Russ. I would have taken his sound adjustment  course myself, had I not been in fear of being sentenced to prison for the rest of my life, for bitch-slapping him into an alternate universe.

https://edgar-online-violinmaking-academy.com/p/pulling-up-the-strings

[VicM]

23 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

That's why you need to take an educational course from "master" Edgar Russ. I would have taken his sound adjustment  course myself, had I not been in fear of being sentenced to prison for the rest of my life, for bitch-slapping him into an alternate universe.

https://edgar-online-violinmaking-academy.com/p/pulling-up-the-strings

Just checked with a Magistrate : you will be out in two years. new experiences  , new friends, time will just fly.

[VicM]

3 hours ago, Mark Norfleet said:

I was not.  You wrote that you moved the post to the optimum position, and the prospect that there was one singular optimum position intrigued me.  I'm always wondering what I'm missing and what possibilities there might be for me to improve the playing experience of those for whom I work.

I think what helps a lot is to have very good ear and dictee training. It also helps if you can play even simple things at very high level. Can you "pull tone" out of a violin ? People with good ear and good training can tell ANY 6 notes taken AT ONCE anywhere on the piano kbd.  The "gifted" can do much more than that. You also need to have pretty good perfect pitch and be able to play the sounds in your memory.

Bottom line, if one is color blind one can't judge reproductions of Mona Lisa.

[David Burgess]

18 hours ago, VicM said:

People with good ear and good training can tell ANY 6 notes taken AT ONCE anywhere on the piano kbd.  The "gifted" can do much more than that. You also need to have pretty good perfect pitch...

I don't think things like this matter, when it comes to evaluating violin sound.

[martin swan]

25 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

I don't think things like this matter, when it comes to evaluating violin sound.

I agree.

"Violin sound" has a lot to do with how a violin responds to bowing. This is why I empathise completely with Michael's fatalism in the face of clients who play notes (generally legato and single strokes) rather than music.

 

[Victor Roman]

1 hour ago, martin swan said:

I agree.

"Violin sound" has a lot to do with how a violin responds to bowing. This is why I empathise completely with Michael's fatalism in the face of clients who play notes (generally legato and single strokes) rather than music.

 

"Violin sound" has a lot to do with how a violin responds to bowing.

Mr. Swan, I am interested in what you actually mean by that. I suspect you are considering a somehow deeper level than the obvious i.e. one needs to move the bow to get some sound.

This is why I empathise completely with Michael's fatalism in the face of clients who play notes (generally legato and single strokes) rather than music.

Memorizing / familiarizing with the quality of notes played slow used to be "bread and butter" of one's effort to raise one's violin playing to a superior level. I will not drop any names but I heard a number of premier soloists doing exactly that with deep focus and intention. We were taught to do that at the Conservatory and I later heard this advice validated by famous players. Players of other instruments do that all the time, too. I have no idea why Mr. Darnton is against this besides the fact he might find it boring and sure, for a listener it may well be. Mr. Darnton and yourself may be a very competent players and I can understand that playing "music" can let's say, speed up things, somehow. If I play a long note lasting say, eight seconds, with or without vibrato and with different bow speeds and pressures I can really focus on it. If I butcher some violin concerto I long forgot then most I can come up with is if the violin is "compliant" or not. That means I focus on the wrong thing in order of importance.

[Michael Darnton]

@Victor Roman  Because I am focused on adjustment not playing. Tone is the player's realm, not mine. It's not possible by adjustment to change the fundamental sound of an instrument in the ways that are a player's responsibility. But the player who ignores the adjuster's contribution has set himself on a hard path.

I want to say also that while I have seen many mediocre players try to buy a violin by sound and flounder around for months doing so, or become serial purchasers for years, I also have seen really good different players make one instrument sound TOTALLY different from each other, then comment "I can work with this", meaning that the instrument is malleable in all important respects, including tonal flexibility (something those legato bowers that Martin speaks about never can do and never test) in the right ways and responding to the bow (part of what I'm managing) just as it should and that it could function for them. 

[martin swan]

Playing of single notes and analysing them outside of a. musical context is a useful part of learning how to play, but it's useless for judging the relative qualities of different violins.

We are expressing our frustration at the number of times that great instruments (or set0ups) are rejected on the basis of a totally flawed testing methodology.

Unlike a percussion instrument (for example a piano) the qualities of a bowed instrument can only be judged when you listen to notes within the context of the flow of time.

[Victor Roman]

21 hours ago, VicM said:

You also need to have pretty good perfect pitch.....

I have NEVER found any advantage for a string player in having perfect pitch. Quite the contrary. Other instruments or conductor / composer, sure it gives an edge. For violin players I think it is a more of a handicap. 

Do not hesitate to prove me wrong, please !

[Victor Roman]

7 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said:

@Victor Roman  Because I am focused on adjustment not playing. Tone is the player's realm, not mine. It's not possible by adjustment to change the fundamental sound of an instrument in the ways that are a player's responsibility. But the player who ignores the adjuster's contribution has set himself on a hard path.

I can digest this, at least in part. I am not quite clear what is meant ( you mean ?) by "adjustment" and I would appreciate some clarification. For example, my new German factory violin was absolutely transformed from a hard to play plank into a very usable and quite pleasant instrument by having a new soundpost fitted. Was that "adjustment" ? I do not recall any adjustment being done. The maker cut it and placed it in the violin and that was that. 

[Michael Darnton]

6 minutes ago, Victor Roman said:

a very usable and quite pleasant instrument by having a new soundpost fitted. Was that "adjustment" ?

That is exactly adjustment: the modifying of the basic setup of the violin, i.e., soundpost, bridge, afterlength, strings, whatever is easily moveable or changeable to make the instrument more suitable to the player. And sometimes it can go deeper, as for instance changing the board and neck set, etc. 

It could even go deeper, regraduation, revarnishing, etc. Not always acceptable measures, of course, depending on the violin. On one of my own make, for instance, I can do anything I want. And by changing something like that, that is also, yes, "adjustment". "Making" only happens once, the first time.

[Victor Roman]

13 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Playing of single notes and analysing them outside of a. musical context is a useful part of learning how to play, but it's useless for judging the relative qualities of different violins.

I assure you that if I play a single note as I already wrote, it is in a musical context. You do not hear it, I have it in my inner ear. For example, I would be curious if a certain note can be moved from dry to wet, if the ppp to ff chages color the right way, etc.  For me, that is important when " for judging the relative qualities of different violins". 

[Michael Darnton]

@Victor Roman I'd argue that this is useful if all you ever do is to play long disconnected notes in music, but if you intend to do those things in the context of a fast moving phrase my work can make or break that for you. You'll quickly forget all of that nuance if your E string absolutely insists on whistling when you play it, or the note is scratchy all the way through when you play it in a fast stream.

[Victor Roman]

6 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said:

That is exactly adjustment: the modifying of the basic setup of the violin, i.e., soundpost, bridge, afterlength, strings, whatever is easily moveable or changeable to make the instrument more suitable to the player. And sometimes it can go deeper, as for instance changing the board and neck set, etc. 

Thank you for your comment - I will try to get my head around it as I understand more. I come from a place where the intrinsic beauty of "voice" is the primary quality and I find it somehow difficult to abandon old habits.... I blame it on too much Opera.   

[Michael Darnton]

@Victor Roman You like that violin's tone,  but it won't play quietly with a solid full voice  in your quartet (especially on the G string) or chokes when you push, notes smear together or attack with a long noisy scratches in fast passages, there are nasty notes, bad ranges. . .  all of the little behavior problems that you don't get in legato single notes that prevent you from doing what you need to do, the little nasty bits that the violin does on its own that get edited out of recordings . . . things that you probably thought were your fault . . .those are the kinds of things I can change for you so that you can spend more time on the music, less on attacking that bad note just exactly right every time you run into it.

[Victor Roman]

6 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said:

@Victor Roman I'd argue that this is useful if all you ever do is to play long disconnected notes in music, but if you intend to do those things in the context of a fast moving phrase my work can make or break that for you. You'll quickly forget all of that nuance if your E string absolutely insists on whistling when you play it, or the note is scratchy all the way through when you play it in a fast stream.

No argument from me there ! But there is a lot of music with long notes where the listener has time to notice the intrinsic quality of the note. Something not that obvious , if obvious at all, at faster tempo. I could probably give you hundreds of examples. I see very good parallel with Opera : lots of wonderfully technical sopranos, only the primary quality of the voice is not there and they sound ( mildly put ) dull. As famous example Maria Callas never had the voice quality of Monserrat Caballe and it shows and it shows right where it should not.

But I do get your point.

 

[martin swan]

21 minutes ago, Victor Roman said:

For example, I would be curious if a certain note can be moved from dry to wet, if the ppp to ff chages color the right way, etc.  For me, that is important when " for judging the relative qualities of different violins". 

You are describing bowing and how a particular violin responds to bowing ...

With regard to opera singers, I think that's an interesting comparison. A great singer must have inherently beautiful vocal chords but these are valueless unless you can control them with the breath going past them. How can you judge a singer unless they sing?

[Victor Roman]

6 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said:

@Victor Roman You like that violin's tone,  but it won't play quietly with a solid full voice  in your quartet (especially on the G string) or chokes when you push, notes smear together or attack with a long noisy scratches in fast passages, there are nasty notes, bad ranges. . .  all of the little behavior problems that you don't get in legato single notes that prevent you from doing what you need to do, the little nasty bits that the violin does on its own that get edited out of recordings . . . things that you probably thought were your fault . . .those are the kinds of things I can change for you so that you can spend more time on the music, less on attacking that bad note just exactly right every time you run into it.

I understand and I thank you for clarifying. From my perspective I can not say I like my violin's tone for it's inherent beauty. I like it because I found it sufficient for the purpose. The violin has it's range of defects on the lines you mention and I learned to go around them, more or less. The tone has a slight edge to it, a certain sandiness ( is that a word ) which I found works well in quartets if the room is large enough. But my violin would not work well for 2nd Movement from Bach E Major or Beethoven where a cleaner tone is needed. 

[Victor Roman]

12 minutes ago, martin swan said:

You are describing bowing and how a particular violin responds to bowing ...

I know. My point is that ( for me ) it is in a musical context. To explain : I want a certain note to sound in a certain way and I test to see if the violin can get close enough. Also, the violin may suggest to me some other way to play that note, if the violin is very good. It is all in a musical context. 

[VicM]

4 hours ago, David Burgess said:

I don't think things like this matter, when it comes to evaluating violin sound.

Maybe not when "evaluating violin sound" in general but the abilities I mentioned are very strong determined by one's musical memory. It  is mostly training if started at the right age. Notice how easy you recognize familiar speaking voices. Slightly less easy, pop singers. Need to be a bit of a specialist to pin down Opera singers. And really need to know your stuff to recognize violin players or ................violins.

[VicM]

1 hour ago, Victor Roman said:

I have NEVER found any advantage for a string player in having perfect pitch. Quite the contrary. Other instruments or conductor / composer, sure it gives an edge. For violin players I think it is a more of a handicap. 

Do not hesitate to prove me wrong, please !

Can speed up things A LOT for the first couple of years of learning. 

[Dr. Mark]

I don't think any of this discussion clarifies much regarding optimal position, although quite a bit about initial placement, adjustments, various other topics, and just how clear an answer can be when discussing sound post placement rather than trying to do it.

[martin swan]

18 minutes ago, Dr. Mark said:

I don't think any of this discussion clarifies much regarding optimal position, although quite a bit about initial placement, adjustments, various other topics, and just how clear an answer can be when discussing sound post placement rather than trying to do it.

Agre.

I don't believe there is such a thing as "optimal position".

As long as the post doesn't damage the inner surfaces and doesn't lead to distortion or cracks then it's a matter of preference.