English violin ID

[uguntde]

I presume with the title that the violin shown here is English. I assume it is from the aura of Richard Duke. I am pretty much convinced that it is all from the same hand, although the front and back purfling is not identical. It has a peculiar label which is largely illegible except for the last name (Hieronymus) and the year (there seem to be 4 names). It has had some very well done repairs including a neck graft, strangely with a very low neck angle, and it needs more work.

Can anyone make sense out of this instrument? or the label?

 

[Blank face]

The label seems to be one of the grammatically misspelled Nicolaus Amatus Cremona Hieronymus filius Antonius nepos versions of more or less modern origin.

The purfling difference is IMO within the variations of handmade stripes.

The violin could be of southern german origin, too, if the inside work points to an inside mould construction. Possibly the lower rib was one piece in the beginning, the flames seem to have the same direction?

[nathan slobodkin]

You say you are assuming this is English. Why?

[uguntde]

Why I assume it is English: I am in England and we always go for English first if it could also be German :).

But also: The purfling, max 3mm from the edge, very narrow linings. I have a Duke with exactly these features. But I know, Mittenwald is the other option, and a Duke scroll looks different. On the other hand it is also not the typical Kloz scroll (if you look at it from the back it is too broad  towards the top, sideways widening continually where almost all Kloz scrolls have a distinct discontinuity). 

[Rue]

Just curious...what percentage of all the violins produced in Europe (and other nearby regions) - for the masses...are:

German

French

Italian 

English 

Czech

Russian 

Japanese

Other 

[Blank face]

1 hour ago, uguntde said:

Why I assume it is English: I am in England and we always go for English first if it could also be German :).

But also: The purfling, max 3mm from the edge, very narrow linings. I have a Duke with exactly these features. But I know, Mittenwald is the other option, and a Duke scroll looks different. On the other hand it is also not the typical Kloz scroll (if you look at it from the back it is too broad  towards the top, sideways widening continually where almost all Kloz scrolls have a distinct discontinuity). 

The main difference between old English and South German/Austrian in't the shape of the scroll (and there is much more and much different than "Kloz" within the last), but in the way to construct the ribs. While the British, as far as I'm aware, used a built on the back construction with symmetrical corner blocks and rib joints, sometimes the ribs in a groove of the bottom, the Mittenwald/Danubian school built the ribs with an internal mould, resulting in corner blocks shorter in the C bouts with linings morticed in the blocks and mitred rib joints. This features aren't visible at the photos. Furthermore you could look if the front scroll flutings are carved "to the bitter end" or stopping somewhere before.

[uguntde]

34 minutes ago, Blank face said:

The main difference between old English and South German/Austrian in't the shape of the scroll (and there is much more and much different than "Kloz" within the last), but in the way to construct the ribs. While the British, as far as I'm aware, used a built on the back construction with symmetrical corner blocks and rib joints, sometimes the ribs in a groove of the bottom, the Mittenwald/Danubian school built the ribs with an internal mould, resulting in corner blocks shorter in the C bouts with linings morticed in the blocks and mitred rib joints. This features aren't visible at the photos. Furthermore you could look if the front scroll flutings are carved "to the bitter end" or stopping somewhere before.

Thanks for ths advice. I don't have the violin with me but can look this up next week. I am adding a picture of the corner. What you describe as "built on the back construction with symmetrical corner blocks and rib joints, sometimes the ribs in a groove of the bottom" I have seen with some instruments, especially a Pamphillon owned by a friend. However, my Duke doesn't show this or I don't know how to identify it (how do I see when it is built on the bottom?).

Considering that the bottom round holes of the f-holes are quite small it is hard to see the inside, it seemed that the lining is extemely narrow (3mm) and square shaped

I added a few more pictures and can take a few more next week. The violin also needs to be opened and I will have more pictures from the inside in a few weeks.

[Blank face]

Thanks for the new views. These don't look like mitred inside mould rib joints, so the violin isn't Mittenwald or from a related origin. Maybe someone like Peter Ratcliff or Martin Swan could give more information if it's English?

[martin swan]

Well I always seem to say Joseph Hill but it looks quite like Joseph Hill. The short f-holes in particular...

[Ratcliffiddles]

Pretty sure it's late 18th century English, and I don't think Martin's Joseph Hill suggestion is far off. 

[uguntde]

15 hours ago, Blank face said:

Thanks for the new views. These don't look like mitred inside mould rib joints, so the violin isn't Mittenwald or from a related origin. Maybe someone like Peter Ratcliff or Martin Swan could give more information if it's English?

What do mitred inside mould rib joints look like?

[Blank face]

5 hours ago, uguntde said:

What do mitred inside mould rib joints look like?

Maybe mitre isn't the right expression; it means, that one rib, usually the outer one, is covering the other. This happens with inside mould (1) as well as with outside (2), but not with built on the back construction with later installed corner blocks (3).

An exception is the "french cornerblockology" which is described here; it appears like built with a mould, though it isn't:

 

From the exterior it looks like 4 (outside mould), only one end grain is visible..

[uguntde]

Got the idea, thanks

[uguntde]

Interesting to read that Joseph Hill used this label more often:

http://www.wrightviolins.com/joseph-hill/

I also didn't know that Richard Duke and Josph Hill lived next door to each other near High Holborn.