Cello backs and ribs

[Jim Bress]

I've been looking at Cremonese and Venetian celli and I've noticed a pattern where celli with poplar or willow backs have ribs made from pear or beach.  I didn't find a lot of examples so maybe these were just a coincidence.  My other thought is that while poplar and willow backs work well for celli backs they are not appropriate (structurally?) for ribs.  Is this true? 

I've seen tonewood suppliers of European poplar and I can get Tulip poplar (not from the Populus genus) locally.  However, I have no idea where to order European Beech or pear.  If needed with willow or poplar for ribs, does anyone know reliable suppliers of beech or pear?  

Thanks,

Jim

[Ken_N]

Jim, I'm sure that I've never seen Tulip poplar on Cello's, violins, or even violas.  Maybe a couple guitars in pictures.  I thought it would be a good tone wood looking at the data; light for its stiffness; but I've never seen where anyone has used it!  I've never held a nice, quartered piece of it, let alone tapped one. The pictures I saw didn't do anything for me either.  That said, I've never seen a flamed Padauk viola, but I'm going to do it.  It should look cool.

I know that people use European Poplar and Willow for ribs.  Maybe they used Maple ribs because the had them, and they are nice looking?

[JacksonMaberry]

"Tulip poplar" works great for organ pipes. Seems like an ok if untraditional choice for cellos, as a fellow I know here just made one of the stuff on a montagnana pattern and it sounded quite good! 

Fagus seems pretty consistent between old world/new world, but can be damn heavy. Perhaps there's something to coupling it with a soft back wood like poplar/willow, but I wouldn't know. 

Pear is tough - never seen it in the US except in it's steamed state, and I can't stand the color. Pretty spendy, too! 

I'm hoping Chris Jacoby pops in here, because he's got a ton of experience with willow. 

[MeyerFittings]

27 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

"Tulip poplar" works great for organ pipes. Seems like an ok if untraditional choice for cellos, as a fellow I know here just made one of the stuff on a montagnana pattern and it sounded quite good! 

Fagus seems pretty consistent between old world/new world, but can be damn heavy. Perhaps there's something to coupling it with a soft back wood like poplar/willow, but I wouldn't know. 

Pear is tough - never seen it in the US except in it's steamed state, and I can't stand the color. Pretty spendy, too! 

I'm hoping Chris Jacoby pops in here, because he's got a ton of experience with willow. 

What's wrong with the color? 

[JacksonMaberry]

Nothing wrong with that all! 

[nathan slobodkin]

I've made quite a few cellos with poplar backs and sides and they work fine. I do some times use maple ribs with willow or poplar backs which seems to brighten them up a bit. The poplar I have used was standard slab cut commercial stock which was bought as "poplar" but actually was a mix of at least three species including tulip poplar.

I think we have talked about beech and pear and they are quite hard to find although I am told Rivolta some times has them.

[Jim Bress]

15 hours ago, Ken_N said:

Jim, I'm sure that I've never seen Tulip poplar on Cello's, violins, or even violas.  Maybe a couple guitars in pictures.  I thought it would be a good tone wood looking at the data; light for its stiffness; but I've never seen where anyone has used it!  I've never held a nice, quartered piece of it, let alone tapped one. The pictures I saw didn't do anything for me either.  That said, I've never seen a flamed Padauk viola, but I'm going to do it.  It should look cool.

I know that people use European Poplar and Willow for ribs.  Maybe they used Maple ribs because the had them, and they are nice looking?

 

15 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

"Tulip poplar" works great for organ pipes. Seems like an ok if untraditional choice for cellos, as a fellow I know here just made one of the stuff on a montagnana pattern and it sounded quite good! 

Fagus seems pretty consistent between old world/new world, but can be damn heavy. Perhaps there's something to coupling it with a soft back wood like poplar/willow, but I wouldn't know. 

Pear is tough - never seen it in the US except in it's steamed state, and I can't stand the color. Pretty spendy, too! 

I'm hoping Chris Jacoby pops in here, because he's got a ton of experience with willow. 

I bought some tulip poplar for a viola carving cradle.  Later learned that's its a viable wood for violas.  The SG on this stuff is 0.50.  The outside of my plates are done and I'm hollowing out the cradle now to work the inside of the plates.  Feels pretty good under the gouge and finger plane.  The big wardrobe in the background is my UV box.

[Jim Bress]

47 minutes ago, nathan slobodkin said:

I've made quite a few cellos with poplar backs and sides and they work fine. I do some times use maple ribs with willow or poplar backs which seems to brighten them up a bit. The poplar I have used was standard slab cut commercial stock which was bought as "poplar" but actually was a mix of at least three species including tulip poplar.

I think we have talked about beech and pear and they are quite hard to find although I am told Rivolta some times has them.

Thanks Nate!  those are the answers I was looking for.  So stiffer ribs were used (possibly) for acoustic reasons, or maybe just what was at hand that would look good with the back.  When you say you used slab cut are you referring to the back only, or did you use slab cut ribs?  I thought ribs should always be quarter sawn.  Might be wrong.

Thanks,

Jim 

[Melvin Goldsmith]

I do poplar Celli a lot. Poplar has tonnes of sub species and some of them are hard to distinguish from some types of willow in the timber state. Back in the classic Cremonese times makers were using poplar because maple was too expensive or unobtainable. Slab poplar wasa common building product especially for doors and  luthiers used it when they had to with other substitute woods for ribs if needed including beech and plane.  When you see poplar ribs used they are generally  thicknessed the same as maple at 1.5 to 1.7mm but lined with linen patches to make them tough. I only saw quartered ribs in this case. Certainly would not use slab.

[Jim Bress]

Perfect Melvin!  You answered my next questions on ribs and structure before I could ask it. I appreciate the historical perspective popular use. 

Thanks,

Jim

[Ken_N]

I like the idea that poplar isn't frowned upon by cello makers, but I'd have to see it!  One piece I found looks great, but doesn't have structure, it is too funky. I've only used poplar in blocks. 

 I have worked with American Sycamore, and the piece I had was really nice.  Not waxy, not crumbly, resonant as can be, and certainly not boring looking.  Very easy to work. I use it exclusively for linings now.  Bends great with no cracking.  At least this piece does. The violins I made with it came out nice. They don't seem to be any different tonally, I'd need someone who knows to play and analyze them.  They sound normal to mel.  I'd have to find the right piece, but I think it would make a great cello.  Some things that make Sycamore  easier: 1/4 sawn is easy to find, because that's the way it looks the best, and It is a large tree, so wide pieces would be available.

Just some pics I found on Google, the alternating ribbons are common. The way you finish it makes a difference it seems.  I hope the one is in the white!