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So now the super light violin is varnished on the top and the back was thinned down from the outside reducing its weight by approximately 30g. 

This was an extremely interesting experiment. The major 'defect' of the violin was a sort of over resonance on the D and G string especially F# was a kind of roaring. The thinning down didn't change anything, at least from the perspective of playing. If anything changed during the thinning down it were overtones. I stopped thinning from the outside when I thought that the overtones started to weaken. Despite using Audacity I trusted my ears more than the spectra because the graphs in the high frequency range are a kind of difficult to interpret. 

This means in the end that saving material on the ribs neck scroll and fingerboard affects D and G strings. Because I the air resonance seems to be involved I suspect that the weak point of this construction are the ribs which are too flexible. On the most resonant F# the c rib section vibrates pretty vehemently (detected by touching while playing)

I didn't expect the super light violin without bugs, so next I need to think about steps to solve the problem. For the next super light violin the laminated ribs need to be stronger and i am thinking of making plywood type of ribs. 

On the current violin I will make at least one attempt to control the cavity resonance by cross linking the corner blocks with two sticks from one side to the other. I have only to think about a doable method to anchor it in the balsa wood corner blocks. 

 

image.jpeg

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2 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Do you know by any chance if this can be done with an iPhone? 

All of my videos have been with an iPhone (.mov file), and the sound is surprisingly good.  You can get a free mov to MP3 converter to get just the audio part.  I do all of that on my computer; I don't know if there are apps to do it on the phone.

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Andreas, I've been lurking and reading, enjoying this thread a lot. But I'm only a Cellist with an interest in making and practically no experience, so take my comments with that in mind please. I was just wondering, if you think that the flexibility of the ribs is the problem, why wouldn't you take the top off and add an extra layer of lamination on the inside of the ribs? Shouldn't that answer the question if it really has something to do with the weakness of the ribs very adequately?

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3 hours ago, baroquecello said:

Andreas, I've been lurking and reading, enjoying this thread a lot. But I'm only a Cellist with an interest in making and practically no experience, so take my comments with that in mind please. I was just wondering, if you think that the flexibility of the ribs is the problem, why wouldn't you take the top off and add an extra layer of lamination on the inside of the ribs? Shouldn't that answer the question if it really has something to do with the weakness of the ribs very adequately?

I was thinking about the same option. But before, I am going to see what I can do with ground and varnish. 

Actually I think I should try this construction on a small viola and it might turn out that it can solve the problems of a weak lower register. 

Thanks for following and reading and sorry that I couldn't make the experiment on a cello. :rolleyes:

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On 11/14/2018 at 3:55 PM, Andreas Preuss said:

The major 'defect' of the violin was a sort of over resonance on the D and G string especially F# was a kind of roaring. ...

On the most resonant F# the c rib section vibrates pretty vehemently (detected by touching while playing)

You have an over-active CBR resonance.  Might be the flimsy ribs, but also I think the extra-large F hole on the bass side would contribute to the problem, or perhaps even be the main cause.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

You have an over-active CBR resonance.  Might be the flimsy ribs, but also I think the extra-large F hole on the bass side would contribute to the problem, or perhaps even be the main cause.

 

 

Don, thanks for your diagnostical input. I was thinking of th f hole as a possible cause too. But more I suspect the soft surface of the ribs as a cause. The entire rib structure as a whole was not so different to Strad type light weight ribs. In N-S direction the flex with a weight was more or less the same and in E-W direction a little weaker. In an torsion test (just by hand feel) it wasn't much weaker either.

Next is varnish on the ribs but before I'll make for everyone here a recording. 

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Sound sample of the played super light violin:

Some technical data for the folks who are interested in it:

total weight w/o chinrest 302g

chinrest: 42g

top varnished 

setup with Evah pirazzi A D G pitastro gold E 

Bridge height 30 mm 

string angle A D strings 160

After some experiments with the soundpost a placement where it stands half under the bridge proved to be most satisfactory. Moving to a normal position a few millimeters behind the bridge increased the woofiness on the lower strings.

For the recording I attached a clip mic to my cell phone and played the violin at c. 3m distance. 

 

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Your B mode frequencies look pretty low, as one would expect, particularly B1+ which appears to be around 490 Hz.  For my 48g top, I used a very stiff bass bar, at 5.2 g.  That kept the B1+ frequency above 500 Hz and cut down on the woofiness, which is primarily an indication of excessive compliance on the bass foot of the bridge.

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On April 9, 30 Heisei at 3:21 AM, thirteenthsteph said:

I'd be interested in a super-light viola right now! Violins are light enough. :lol:

Now at almost the end and doing sound tests and adjustments it seems indeed that this way of construction enhances to a pretty big degree the resonances of the lower registers. This means it could be a very good recipe to build not too big violas with a pretty low voiced timbre.

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9 hours ago, Don Noon said:

Your B mode frequencies look pretty low, as one would expect, particularly B1+ which appears to be around 490 Hz.  For my 48g top, I used a very stiff bass bar, at 5.2 g.  That kept the B1+ frequency above 500 Hz and cut down on the woofiness, which is primarily an indication of excessive compliance on the bass foot of the bridge.

Don, thanks for you input. 

I had it played by a pretty high level violinist and he was not too concerned about the woofiness. Then when I heard Ilya Gringolts in concert, his violin was noticeably woofi from the 7th row where I was sitting.

I kept my top at a normal weight though changeing the bass bar would be pretty simple and fast. Maybe a bass bar just from one end to the other can do something. the bass side f hole is actually not that long . The ole bull Del Gesu has 86mm f holes and my bass side f hole 89mm.

i am now adding weights in different locations to see where it is really necessary. One thing I noticed is that adding weights in the pegbox under the head and at the end of the fingerboard 'stabilizes' the sound under the bow.

Next I am going to varnish the ribs to see what it will do to the sound.

Then I was thinking of installing a barring inside between the corner blocks.

-------------------------//------------------------

If I am going to do this again I would actually do the following changes:

rib lamination in 3 layers

shorter F holes on both sides but still irregular.

a bent top where the ribs are fitted to the bent underside. This would actually result in a pretty cool design where the corners are bent out of the way.

maybe the air resonance for such a violin needs to be higher too.

 

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22 hours ago, Critical mind said:

 changing one parameter radically will just destroy everything

Not "everything".  Changing one parameter radically is the definition of how learn what that parameter does.  Of course, if the goal is to faithfully reproduce all dimensions exactly, then learning stuff would be a waste of time.

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On December 2, 30 Heisei at 1:08 AM, Critical mind said:

Honestly, you are waisting your time. The violin sound is defined by more or less all dimensions, changing one parameter radically will just destroy everything, no matter how clever you try to be.

You can waste your time as well in repeating with the same parameters the same mistakes.

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  • 5 months later...

Hi Andreas, i sortof forgot about this project..  Looks and sounds quite good, but maybe lacks a bit 'core' due to the light weight?  Nice idea of reducing weight by enlarging the F-hole :D

I also was curious about the body modes and took a sample from the first 12 notes:

andreas1.jpg.4c2797160c3f2d8f451fed2415de6ef3.jpg

269 should be A0, 495 B1+ (close to Don's 490)

i'm guessing: 414 is B1- and 390 is CBR (G), not sure what the 291 is (B0?).

It's a few months old now, did the sound change much? Any chance of a test by a pro violinist?

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
On May 9, 31 Heisei at 5:10 AM, Emilg said:

Hi Andreas, i sortof forgot about this project..  Looks and sounds quite good, but maybe lacks a bit 'core' due to the light weight?  Nice idea of reducing weight by enlarging the F-hole :D

I also was curious about the body modes and took a sample from the first 12 notes:

andreas1.jpg.4c2797160c3f2d8f451fed2415de6ef3.jpg

269 should be A0, 495 B1+ (close to Don's 490)

i'm guessing: 414 is B1- and 390 is CBR (G), not sure what the 291 is (B0?).

It's a few months old now, did the sound change much? Any chance of a test by a pro violinist?

 

Sorry for answering your questions so late. 

I didn't expect the experiment to deliver an exceptionally sounding violin and in this sense I am happy with the result so far.

The problems you mention are exactly pinning down what I have to work on from now. So what I am going to do is basically the Zygmontovitch experiment: glue sticks from the outside to see how the sound changes and where mass (and stiffness) arme needed. In The end it is easier to add weight to improve the sound than to reducing weight with the same goal.

i have to check out a different neck material and stiffen the ribs with a better method.

Then it is ready to be played by a professional musician.

 

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3 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Sorry for answering your questions so late. 

I didn't expect the experiment to deliver an exceptionally sounding violin and in this sense I am happy with the result so far.

The problems you mention are exactly pinning down what I have to work on from now. So what I am going to do is basically the Zygmontovitch experiment: glue sticks from the outside to see how the sound changes and where mass (and stiffness) arme needed. In The end it is easier to add weight to improve the sound than to reducing weight with the same goal.

i have to check out a different neck material and stiffen the ribs with a better method.

Then it is ready to be played by a professional musician.

 

Cool Andreas, keep us posted :)

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  • 1 month later...

So now comes the real challenge. Make the super light violin sound.  

Here are the ideas I have in mind 

1: open the violin and reinforce the rib structure with cross bars. 

2: varnish the ribs from the inside

3. graft a neck with spruce type material which has a a higher sound speed than red cedar. 

4: make a rib cage with heavy thick ribs. 

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