Andreas Preuss’ New Concept Violin (formerly: super light violin)

[Andreas Preuss]

On 4/26/2018 at 8:25 AM, Jim Bress said:

I’ve been thinking about this. Would lining the ribs with linen as you would sometimes do with cello ribs make sense?  You should be able to add strips incrementally to achieve just enough support to minimize the additional weight added. 

-Jim

003-24.1 

Jim,

in principle this would be not a bad idea, but the thing is that I already used japanpaper to reinforce the 0.5mm thick ribs. And then glue again linen over it makes me feel a bit awkward. (you know what I mean.)

What would you think of zig zagged reinforcements like in building structures. If made of spruce again I guess this would add not more than 5g.

[Emilg]

Hi Andreas,

What wil the approach be for the ground and varnish. Maybe a just couple of very thin layers of oil varnish?

[Jim Bress]

53 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

JIm,

in principle this would be not a bad idea, but the thing is that I already used japanpaper to reinforce the 0.5mm thick ribs. And then glue again linen over it makes me feel a bit awkward. (you know what I mean.)

What would you think of zig zagged reinforcements like in building structures. If made of spruce again I guess this would add not more than 5g.

Sorry you mentioned the Japan paper earlier, I should have reread the thread first, but at 2:30am I was feeling lazy. 

Maybe attaching lining vertically as some do for additional support under the chin rest at a few key points. Insomnia tonight so possibly not the best idea.  1 more hour before I “wake up” to go to work. 

[Andreas Preuss]

On 4/26/2018 at 9:28 AM, Emilg said:

Hi Andreas,

What wil the approach be for the ground and varnish. Maybe a just couple of very thin layers of oil varnish?

003-25.1 

Hi Emil,

for varnish?  I have no new idea at all!

Thinking about its future, I'd say maybe I even make a fantasy antique finish, so that from some distance (the first row in a concert hall) nobody will immediately know what he/she is looking on, because the violin has corners, it will have a scroll, just a few details are a little bit different.

[JacksonMaberry]

Special coatings are used to stiffen paper to help prevent printer jamming and so on. Perhaps you could apply some kind of coating to the interior of the rib structure to improve stiffness? I am not sure what this would be, whether as simple as a starch solution or some kind of plastic. Maybe a shellac solution? 

[Jim Bress]

9 hours ago, Jim Bress said:

Sorry you mentioned the Japan paper earlier, I should have reread the thread first, but at 2:30am I was feeling lazy. 

Maybe attaching lining vertically as some do for additional support under the chin rest at a few key points. Insomnia tonight so possibly not the best idea.  1 more hour before I “wake up” to go to work. 

Found a picture of what I was talking about.  It's MN members work.  I'll let him claim credit if he wants.

Edit: after checking my notes this fiddle is by Giorgio Gatti (Turin c. 1920).  At least I correctly remembered who's coffee cup is in the background. 

[Felefar]

On 4/24/2018 at 7:44 AM, Andreas Preuss said:

Wolf notes might be actually the achilles' heel of the whole thing. We'll see.

(If there are too many wolves howling, I'll ask a composer to write a piece for violin and wolf note interruptions.)

Get enough wolf notes, and I will give it a try. I kind of like those out-of-the-blue screams, except when they shouldn’t be there.

[Andreas Preuss]

On 4/26/2018 at 7:32 PM, Jim Bress said:

Found a picture of what I was talking about.  It's MN members work.  I'll let him claim credit if he wants.

Edit: after checking my notes this fiddle is by Giorgio Gatti (Turin c. 1920).  At least I correctly remembered who's coffee cup is in the background. 

003-26.1 Yes this goes in the right direction I think. But because there is no direct pressure in a vertical direction (at the C bouts for example) I think it is better to transform this idea and glue those strips diagonally in a zig zag pattern. I think in a pragmatical way I'll cut first a strip weighting 5g and see what I can do with this ammout of material. What I see from flexing the rib cage in my hands the reinforcement is needed in the central area between the widest points of the upper and lower bouts.

[Evan Smith]

Personally I don't believe this will accomplish anything but looking amateurish and goofy. If you want to replace the stiffness that you removed it can be done with slightly thicker edges.

You might want to try cutting the ribs out of a fully strung fiddle first and observe the results. But leave the linings and blocks.

You might look through this thread,,,

The top block ended up coming completely unglued and the board still did not touch the top.

When it was all glued up it still took the same post,,, go figure, I would have never believed it but it is true,,,,,I couldn't wrap my head around it but there you go.

I think that most of what goes around are just thought experiments with nothing to back it up with  ,,    but a wild overactive imagination.

I have thinned ribs out on a working fiddle,,, all it did was to increase the bass response of the lower strings, that fiddle is 25 years old and I still see it occasionally,, it looks fine.

I have done hundreds of experiments that no one would believe,,,,,,Just sayin..

Evan the wild man

[Andreas Preuss]

On 4/26/2018 at 3:10 PM, JacksonMaberry said:

Special coatings are used to stiffen paper to help prevent printer jamming and so on. Perhaps you could apply some kind of coating to the interior of the rib structure to improve stiffness? I am not sure what this would be, whether as simple as a starch solution or some kind of plastic. Maybe a shellac solution? 

003-27.1 

Jackson,

Maybe a two component glue is good because it gets really stiff and hard. I am a bit concerned about the weight. But your idea might be good for the next super light violin to glue the Japan paper instead using hot glue.

I used hot glue this time because I was hoping it would become transparent. Only in some sections this happened for reasons I still don't understand.

[Andreas Preuss]

On 4/27/2018 at 1:55 AM, Evan Smith said:

Personally I don't believe this will accomplish anything but looking amateurish and goofy. If you want to replace the stiffness that you removed it can be done with slightly thicker edges.

You might want to try cutting the ribs out of a fully strung fiddle first and observe the results. But leave the linings and blocks.

You might look through this thread,,,

The top block ended up coming completely unglued and the board still did not touch the top.

When it was all glued up it still took the same post,,, go figure, I would have never believed it but it is true,,,,,I couldn't wrap my head around it but there you go.

I think that most of what goes around are just thought experiments with nothing to back it up with  ,,    but a wild overactive imagination.

I have thinned ribs out on a working fiddle,,, all it did was to increase the bass response of the lower strings, that fiddle is 25 years old and I still see it occasionally,, it looks fine.

I have done hundreds of experiments that no one would believe,,,,,,Just sayin..

Evan the wild man

003-28.1 

Evan, 

interesting experiments. Need to look at it slowly. 

Besides, my super light violin will either the goofiest fiddle I ever made or the revolution of 21st century violin making. (I expect rather the first outcome)

[Evan Smith]

1 hour ago, Andreas Preuss said:

i used hot glue this time because I was hoping it would become transparent. Only in some sections this happened for reasons I still don't understand.

If the paper is placed in the glue for a bit of time  to thoroughly soak up the glue it has a better chance of becoming transparent, depending on the paper, the glue should be plenty thick if it is too thin,, when it dries and shrinks the surface of the paper can go white. After the paper is brushed down leave a bit of glue on the surface to keep it transparent while it dries. A bit of hot water can remove the excess after all is dried,, if necessary.

[Evan Smith]

3 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Evan, 

interesting experiments. Need to look at it slowly. 

Besides, my super light violin will either the goofiest fiddle I ever made or the revolution of 21st century violin making. (I expect rather the first outcome)

My point is that in an experiment a person should only do as little as possible at one time,,,,

If after testing it seems a bit soft,,, then add the girders,,,,or a .03 veneer or something,,,,, then you will know more,, too much at once and you never know and have to do more to find out what happened,,,,,,

Evan crazy at heart

[Andreas Preuss]

On 4/27/2018 at 7:52 AM, Evan Smith said:

If the paper is placed in the glue for a bit of time  to thoroughly soak up the glue it has a better chance of becoming transparent, depending on the paper, the glue should be plenty thick if it is too thin,, when it dries and shrinks the surface of the paper can go white. After the paper is brushed down leave a bit of glue on the surface to keep it transparent while it dries. A bit of hot water can remove the excess after all is dried,, if necessary.

003-29.1

Evan,

thanks for sharing your experiences here. This explains probably what happened on my ribs. I soaked the paper with glue but the glue was too thin. I will remember that on my next super light violin.

[Andreas Preuss]

On 4/27/2018 at 7:56 AM, Evan Smith said:

My point is that in an experiment a person should only do as little as possible at one time,,,,

If after testing it seems a bit soft,,, then add the girders,,,,or a .03 veneer or something,,,,, then you will know more,, too much at once and you never know and have to do more to find out what happened,,,,,,

Evan crazy at heart

003-30.1 I was thinking the past days quite a bit what to do with the ribs. And In the end, yes, just leave them as they are, because they are a pretty cool piece of workmanship. (or to say it like the devil: Amateurs can copy a Strad but not my super light violin! )

30.2 What I am expecting now is actually the exaggerated Strad edgework: Maybe it is necessary to have around 5mm at the C-bouts on top and back to make it work for the sound. 

[Andreas Preuss]

003-31.1 I just read the whole thread on light weight fiddle by Roger Frankland. The biggest mistake I see in his approach is that he sacrified the heart and lungs of the instrument to achieve his goal. (And unfortunately there was not too much data on the weight of ribs scroll and fingerboard.)

31.2 So not to make too foolish things which are just the perfect recipe for failure I need to recalibrate my original goals which were

1. rib weight 45 g
2. top plate with bass bar 65g
3. back 100g
4. neck and scroll and fingerboard 100g
5. accessories (pegs , tailpiece, soundpost, bridge, strings, endpin) 35g

The total makes 345g.

Now that I have already ribs weighting only 31g makes life much easier

recalibrated weight goals are now

1. ribs 31 g
2. top plate 67g
3. back 103g
4. neck and scroll and fingerboard 95g
5. accessories 35g
6. varnish 5g

TOTAL 336 g

31.3 Especially the additional meat on the sound-essential parts is, I think, a necessary move. Looking on some other experiments by Evan Smith, the parts supporting the string load must be solid and my original idea to save as much as possible on the edge of the plates is getting a kind of abandoned. Though one could think the edge is not actively involved in the sound production It seems that the edge thickness acts as a kind of frame for everything vibrating. so better not temper with it. And reducing the edge thickness later from the outside is a realistic option.

31.4 The neck scroll fingerboard weight looks pretty light in this calculation. The reason why I think it is possible to go so low is simply that I want to graft the scroll with a light spruce neck. This spruce neck should actually more resistant than maple in the grain direction which is certainly not bad. For the scroll itself I am planning to size down a Leduc type of scroll with only little material on it and carving the pegbox itself to the minimum possible thickness (especially on the bottom and going as deep under the head as possible. Fingerboard will be baroque type spruce ebony veneer.

31.5 I will actually follow the advice to bend the top plate, however not exactly as Helen Michetschlager is doing it. For additional stability this is certainly .advantegeous.

31.6 Anything below 335 g depends on how much material I can carve away on the assembled playable instrument from the back. So this would mean in the new calculation, that with some luck I get to 325g but this I think is really the limit.

 

[JacksonMaberry]

Thanks for the update! Looking forward to seeing how your top bending technique plays out.

[Don Noon]

I know I'm a lightweight maker, but I've never made any violin tops as heavy as 67g.  A 103g back also looks heavy for someone trying to build a lightweight.  Still, it makes sense to go a bit heavy initially on things that can be changed relatively easily.

[Andreas Preuss]

On 5/3/2018 at 6:55 PM, Don Noon said:

I know I'm a lightweight maker, but I've never made any violin tops as heavy as 67g.  A 103g back also looks heavy for someone trying to build a lightweight.  Still, it makes sense to go a bit heavy initially on things that can be changed relatively easily.

003-32.1 

Don, that's the idea. 

What is your maximum weight for a top?

I was thinking about 'the tail is swagging the dog' as well.

if the parts of the violin which could be regarded as the 'driving force parts' are lighter and maybe stronger with the spruce neck, I at least could imagine that one needs more resistance in the body to prevent the kind of over-resonance described in both experiments I.e. Joe Curtin and Roget Frankland. 

32.2 Another point I am not sure about any more is the length of the f holes. Maybe long long f holes need a heavy top like on DG and short f holes are advantageous for a light top like on Strads.

[Don Noon]

22 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Whoch is your maximum weight for a top?

For the last several years (15 violins) they have usually been between 60 and 65g... unvarnished, with bass bar, and I usually do a final scraping and edgework after the box is closed, just prior to varnish.  For very low density wood, there were a few that went below 60g.  Lightest was a few years ago using .31 density processed wood, 55g.  Too light, I think.

[Andreas Preuss]

On 5/3/2018 at 11:24 PM, Don Noon said:

For the last several years (15 violins) they have usually been between 60 and 65g... unvarnished, with bass bar, and I usually do a final scraping and edgework after the box is closed, just prior to varnish.  For very low density wood, there were a few that went below 60g.  Lightest was a few years ago using .31 density processed wood, 55g.  Too light, I think.

003-33.1 

Don, thanks for the data.

the more I think about weight the more I come to the conclusion that one needs to start with a sort of approximation and go down in weight to the possible max on the assembled playable instrument. Knowing that the varnish has mostly an impact on the top it might be even a good idea to varnish the top first (just the ground layer should do it) and reduce the back from the outside the way you have done it.

33.2 Do you have any experience with thinning down a normal ebony fingerboard? 

33.3 The lightest ebony fingerboard I made was 55g by keeping the center thick for stability and going down at the ends to 4mm or so.

[Andreas Preuss]

003-34.1 Scroll started. 

I am taking as a model the Leduc scroll and scaled it down to 92%. The size of the scroll had to fit optically to the pegs. It tried to go further than 92% which would have been technically possible but looked too weird for the general proportions. Since the entire body of violin is as small as possible, the small scroll fits in proportions quite well. The wood is the same as the back. (0.58)

 

[Don Noon]

2 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Do you have any experience with thinning down a normal ebony fingerboard? 

Just this masterpiece.  I have no idea what the fingerboard weighs, but it has to be relatively light, with the cutoff end and being 2.6mm thick in the center.  The experiment of the angled cut was to get the fingerboard resonance tuned to the A0 on a fingerboard that was very thin and had a low resonance.  Couldn't tell any difference whatsoever.  I don't do any high-position playing, so maybe there would be a difference there.

  

[Andreas Preuss]

On 5/4/2018 at 1:51 AM, Don Noon said:

Just this masterpiece.  I have no idea what the fingerboard weighs, but it has to be relatively light, with the cutoff end and being 2.6mm thick in the center.  The experiment of the angled cut was to get the fingerboard resonance tuned to the A0 on a fingerboard that was very thin and had a low resonance.  Couldn't tell any difference whatsoever.  I don't do any high-position playing, so maybe there would be a difference there.

  

003-35.1 Your idea?

I can't really see it on the picture but is it laminated or massive ebony?

I like this design for my assymetric violin.

[Don Noon]

It's just an old VSO with the ebony fingerboard accidentally thinned way too much.