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Roger Hargrave

Guns and violin making

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5 hours ago, Nick Allen said:

Who is lusting after these? They have already been banned in the US for several decades. 

Also, why is it that mass shootings are happening so frequently as each year progresses? They rarely happened even before the assault and full auto ban. 

Guns are all dangerous in the wrong hands, regardless of it's rate that it pumps out ordinance down range. 

Single shot are just as lethal in their own ways too. The Barrett .50 cal can literally explode the upper half of someone from any distance. And it happens to be a gun that can be purchased legally. 

I think that guns have to be an all or nothing type of thing. We either have em or we don't. 

Has anyone ever pondered that perhaps we just live in an inherently mad society, which is only getting worse at a quicker rate every year?

 

not true the vegas shooter bought his legally, automatic weapons are legal in a number of states. 

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6 hours ago, Roger Hargrave said:

This is an open letter to all my violin maker friends. I know that the vast majority of you abhor guns and gun violence. Unfortunately, I am also aware that a number of you own many weapons; including automatic pistols and so-called assault rifles. It seems to me that this fixation with such deadly arsenals is linked entirely to either fear or macho aggression. Each individual must know in which category they belong; although it doesn’t really matter. No-one needs automatic weapons of any description, certainly not for hunting or protection. Make no mistake, by purchasing and owning such weapons you make yourselves culpable whenever such senseless acts of gun violence break out. I urge all of my violin making colleagues, if you have them, please give up these weapons. Have them destroyed; I was about to say before it's too late, but it is already too late. I am sorry if you are offended by this intrusion. I remember that some of you were ofended last time I commented on a mass school shooting, but I have been offended by every outbreak of gun violence that I can remember, and since I recently turned seventy, that amounts to an enormous number of dead children. In the USA alone there has already been 1856 gun-related deaths this year. (Up to 16th February.) At least in our profession let's stop it - please. 

Only referring to the bolded section of the quote.  I think it may be more complicated than that.  I am a lifetime practitioner of martial arts.  In other words I've trained almost my entire life to efficiently hurt, maim, or kill people.  I own many deadly weapons, although none of them are guns.  That said I have no desire to hurt anybody whether I like them or not.  I'm a meat eater so I eat meat, and feel sad for each animal that was raised just to fill my belly.  Just saying the issue doesn't fit neatly into one box, and I don't have any good answers that I couldn't poke holes in by playing the "devil's advocate".   I guess if the answer was simple it wouldn't be a problem.  Sorry if my words offend anyone.

-Jim

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4 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Oh Roger, I could think of a couple of Targets:rolleyes:

When you tell someone to "piss off", they are much more likely to obey if you have a gun. ;)

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30 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

When you tell someone to "piss off", they are much more likely to obey if you have a gun. ;)

is that why you got so paranoid about it?

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1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

When you tell someone to "piss off", they are much more likely to obey if you have a gun. ;)

And what will happen if he has a gun too? Gunfight at the O.K. Corral?

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David, what is a hand gun if not a military style weapon? It's designed specifically to be readily available to the user to kill people with. There is no use in hunting for a pistol, except in fox hunting when the master may carry a single shot pistol to kill a fox. I've never seen one of these.

Puckfandan, is the system really working?

I live in an area where probably half or more of the homes have a rifle and or a gun. Nobody ever gets shot. It just isn't culturally acceptable to see a human being as a target in any circumstance. Nobody has a hand gun except the criminal, or the policeman who's entrusted with one for a very special reason. Nowadays, unfortunately there are guns in criminal hands, almost always associated with the drug trade, and task forces of armed police who deal with them. But in ordinary day to day living we don't have to worry about being shot. So we don't feel the need to be ready to shoot back!

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7 hours ago, Roger Hargrave said:

...by purchasing and owning such weapons you make yourselves culpable whenever such senseless acts of gun violence break out...

I disagree.  I do not use or own any guns.  But if I did, it would not make me culpable when someone else committed murder.

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1 hour ago, jezzupe said:

You have millions of people living tragic lives full of pain, misery, suffering , poverty and no hope, you will not fix anything until you fix that. 

A sad thread. Basic income can potentially end a lot of suffering. 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/feb/19/basic-income-finland-low-wages-fewer-jobs

46 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Some statistics on guns in the US:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081

It's interesting that only a tiny percentage of gun deaths in the US are mass killing situations. That most murders are committed with handguns, not military-style weapons. Most of these handguns are illegally owned, according to another source I read, but I don't suppose they have a way of knowing, if the crime has not been solved. Also that most gun related deaths in the US are suicides, not homicides.

Still, fewer guns = fewer killed. Is there a debate over this?

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One thing that I would point out is that fully automatic weapons are legal in most states.  There are a limited supply and they are very expensive along with a lot of paperwork, but if you really want a machine gun they can be had.  All that aside an Semi-Auto AR 15 is a very destructive device you can empty a 30 round magazine in about 5 seconds or so and it can cause mayhem on a level that is hard to understand if you have not shot one.  I have. As to murder rates the USA has one of the highest of all first world countries. This is a complex situation, but a different set of gun laws should be part of it.

DLB

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2 hours ago, Conor Russell said:

How is it that so often when a serious or uncomfortably subject is raised, people start talking about animals!

Because the ownership of guns is often justified by using them for the "sport" of killing animals.

I guess the next main reason stated for owning a gun which involves animals is for shooting  Grizzlys and wolves and  Rattlesnakes etc.

 

 

 

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Even video games give me the creeps. I've never played them. The violence makes me sick.  But that's just me.  I even believe that video games are a desensitizing force that is a sad reflection of our society as a whole. They bring out anger and aggression; over and over and over again. Again, that's just me.

Ken

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19 minutes ago, Torbjörn Zethelius said:

Still, fewer guns = fewer killed. Is there a debate over this?

The NRA and its money used to support politicians make sure there will never be a debate about anything related to guns... at least in Washington.

There should at least be some kind of serious look at the factors involved in gun capabilities, deaths, needs/wants of gun owners... and come to a clear decision on what laws we have and why, rather than just saying it is "not the time for the discussion".

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1 hour ago, puckfandan said:

Our founding fathers were a lot smarter than we were. I think many do not understand why our constitution is written the way it is, and why the govt will never round up the firearms.

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/gun-quotations-founding-fathers

We may be a new country compared to many, but we have one of the oldest running governments, so it seems to work. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_date_of_formation

The majority of those quotes are from the 18th century.

Sort of clashes with the rallying cry we hear today that "after all this is the 21st century"".

The implication being that the ways and morals of former times are past there sell by date.

Except,of course, when it comes to old golden period violins. :)

 

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Great to hear from you Rodger!  Thanks for the discussion on the topic, I to am deeply disturbed by these all to often recent events. If it were up to me ..I,d limit private gun ownership to single shot muzzle loaders , It,s so bad here ...any 18 yr old here can buy any number of guns and ammo, simply by virtue of having deep pockets, and a clean record, and if it,s through a private sale like at a gun show there is no background check. ...." several recent sociological studies have strongly suggested that when we witness acts of violence , or in fact any act, we are more likely to commit that act. Simply put ..monkey see monkey do. Not that we will , but the likelihood goes up. This is What we call “ social permition” closely linked to the social contract, an unwritten set of rules and practices that govern the direction a society takes. Take a kid to a concert, their more likely to become a performer than without...... show them mass shootings..... this effect is also not limited to youth, as adults we are all still learning and growing everyday,and are not immune. Moreover, it also seems true that for evil to grow the good nearly need do nothing, therefor it is incumbent upon us to act proactively towards more peaceful ends. Been thinking of taking my own gun.... a hunting bolt rifle ...down to the court house and destroy it publicly, IF I really believed “thoughts and prayers “ could change anything, well then I would , but fact is both football teams pray for God’s helpand think they are the best but only one will win....? Be nice if that were the case cause then I would be the best living violin maker in the world, but that ain’t gonna happin without making a whole lotta ships fly first..... much love to all and again R ...thanks for the conversation.

 

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27 minutes ago, Conor Russell said:

David, what is a hand gun if not a military style weapon?

 

Here, that term is usually used for things like "assault rifles", or AK-47 or M-16 type weapons.

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1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

Some statistics on guns in the US:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081

It's interesting that only a tiny percentage of gun deaths in the US are mass killing situations. That most murders are committed with handguns, not military-style weapons. Most of these handguns are illegally owned, according to another source I read, but I don't suppose they have a way of knowing, if the crime has not been solved. Also that most gun related deaths in the US are suicides, not homicides.

Those pesky facts again..

 

Also, I'd like someone to define "semi auto assault weapon".

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1 hour ago, jezzupe said:

well the sad thing about the UK for example, is that even after banning guns, barring 2010 the murder rate never went below 1996 's murder rate when guns were still available. Or simply, banning guns is nice, as a gun is a quick easy way to kill someone, but as the problem lies much, much deeper than the preferd tool for murder, as we "the silly monkeys" will just find another way with another tool. 

all this "banning" mentality does is drive people to use other methods, great so now in the Uk you don't get shot to death you get stabbed

You have sick society's raised on mass media of all forms that has been pumping fantasy violence into the society, particularly young impressionable children's minds. You allow the Tv, Movies, video games and mass media to dictate your culture, government and election process. For every child whos parent does not let them play GTA5, there are 1000 who do, for every one person who knows that choosing one of a preselected candidate in a media controlled "election" is not an election there are 10,000 who don't, for every parent who will spend time with their child there are 100,000 who will put them on Riddilin and for every indipendent critical thinking mind there are 1,000,000 idiots.

No banning guns won't do anything, if you do that, you'll just use your car, if you ban cars, you'll just use a knife, if you ban knives, you'll just use a baseball bat and if you ban bats you just use a rock, and if you ban rocks, you'll still figure something out.

You have millions of people living tragic lives full of pain, misery, suffering , poverty and no hope, you will not fix anything until you fix that. 

Bravo!

*slow clap 

 

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3 hours ago, FoxMitchell said:

Stradivari didn't own firearms! Maybe that was the secret?  ;)

(sorry, I know it's a serious matter!)

Actually according to the Hills Antonio Stradivari married Francesca, the daughter of Francesco Feraboschi, and widow of Giovanni Giacomo Capra, who committed suicide with an arquebus[1] on the Piazza St. Agata (now Piazza Garibaldi), in April, 1664.

 

[1] An arquebus is an early type of portable firearm usually supported on a tripod or a forked rest.

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40 minutes ago, Torbjörn Zethelius said:

Still, fewer guns = fewer killed. Is there a debate over this?

Looks that way. Hard to know where to start. We have more deaths in the US from drugs now than from guns, and much of the gun death is related to drug use or trafficking.

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5 minutes ago, Roger Hargrave said:

Actually according to the Hills Antonio Stradivari married Francesca, the daughter of Francesco Feraboschi, and widow of Giovanni Giacomo Capra, who committed suicide with an arquebus[1] on the Piazza St. Agata (now Piazza Garibaldi), in April, 1664.

 

[1] An arquebus is an early type of portable firearm usually supported on a tripod or a forked rest.

Not the easiest way to do that. 

450px-Mouscetair.jpg.21635b22ea3664292fc9f6fe0f3ca0d3.jpg

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3 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Sure I've heard of supermarkets, but I guess I didn't realize that the meat in supermarkets hadn't been killed. ;)

The problem is that guns can also be purchased in supermarket in the US. And I fail to see how so many of you are making light of this. I only hope that none of your kids are ever killed by a gun legal or otherwise.  

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2 hours ago, Marijan said:

Perhaps not much, but big things usualy do start with small ones. Roger is probaly addressing the violin making coumunity simply becouse he can reach the largest number of people from his position that way.

That was the idea. Thanks!

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5 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Just curious: How many of the perpetrators in these killings were violin makers? What sort of improvement might be expected if violin makers who own firearms were to have them destroyed?

How many gun owning violin makers have teenagers?  Worry for them.

 

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