The future of violin-making traditions in a world of powertools

[Stavanger]

We all know that the world is evolving, and new modern tools are easily available to make a violinmaker's life easier. 
However, what makes a violin truly "hand made?" Is it only the hard-core traditionalists' violins that are truly hand made, or is it considered "OK" to use powertools for some applications? Where is the transition between "OK" and "not OK"? Is a electric scroll saw "OK"? How about electric purfling cutters? Or milling machine? How about CNC? 

How will this affect the future of violin making? Not even considering the chinese bulk-production here. On a individual maker's level, is it only the final outcome that counts, or is also the "tradition in the making" a part of the process? A bit accentuated, but for the sake of discussion putting it out here: If it's all about the outcome, what makes a modern Italian violin any different from it's Chinese counterpart? 

Curios to hear what people think about the subject. Do you use powertools? If yes, for what applications?
(yes, I know this is highly subjective - and I am not asking these questions to point any fingers at anyone. I am truly curios what people think about the subject matter.)

[Rue]

I think there are niche markets for all kinds, just like there are for other kinds of handcrafting.

Ex.  I could raise a sheep, sheer it's fleece, card the fleece, wash the fleece and spin it into yarn...and then knit you a scarf.

Or I could buy the yarn, processed by the machinery of a mill and knit you the scarf.

Both are handcrafted.  One is made from scratch.  One has help of technology along the way.

One person might prefer the more irregular and rustic look of the first scarf, another person might prefer the uniformity of the knit in the second scarf...

Both are beautiful and wearable and keep your neck warm...

 

[Delabo]

9 minutes ago, Stavanger said:

We all know that the world is evolving, and new modern tools are easily available to make a violinmaker's life easier. 
However, what makes a violin truly "hand made?" Is it only the hard-core traditionalists' violins that are truly hand made, or is it considered "OK" to use powertools for some applications? Where is the transition between "OK" and "not OK"? Is a electric scroll saw "OK"? How about electric purfling cutters? Or milling machine? How about CNC? 

How will this affect the future of violin making? Not even considering the chinese bulk-production here. On a individual maker's level, is it only the final outcome that counts, or is also the "tradition in the making" a part of the process? A bit accentuated, but for the sake of discussion putting it out here: If it's all about the outcome, what makes a modern Italian violin any different from it's Chinese counterpart? 

Curios to hear what people think about the subject. Do you use powertools? If yes, for what applications?
(yes, I know this is highly subjective - and I am not asking these questions to point any fingers at anyone. I am truly curios what people think about the subject matter.)

I do not make violins,so my opinion is purely if I was ever in the financial position to afford a good hand made master violin, and I would like it to be sans powertool .

This old film,about a truly traditional luthier,which has been posted here before, sums up the violin I would like to own.....

 

[James M. Jones]

Raises the question ...what would Strad do ? IMHO if the dog wags it,s tail, fine but the tail waging the dog becomes a different story, That is to say if one chooses a CNC type rout to perform certain tasks, that’s fine as long as when all’s said and done the feeling is conveyed. This can be a struggle at times though as certain aspects of geometry can easily be overlooked , such as dishing of the wings or the use of cantary arches that are easy to program , but not nessicsarily ...correct for lack of better term. For my part I use very few power tools , nothing that would leave a finished surface, not because of some higher ideal, more of an economic,learning curve thing.

[caerolle]

Has it ever been settled whether or not the harsh vibrations from using power tools negatively affects the wood wrt its 'sonic' qualities? I have seen a few statements both ways on that, but don't know that I have seen a final answer. Or is such a consensus even possible in this area?

Personally, if I were going to make a violin, I would probably use a scroll saw for roughing out the neck, maybe even for the plate outlines, but that would be about it. Mostly because I seriously do not like using power tools, but also seems to take some of the romance out of the whole thing. Of course, if you are trying to make a living, or are committed to filling a social need (could there every be too many great violins?), then if you get to the exact same endpoint, that is a different thing from being a hobbyist.

[duane88]

23 minutes ago, James M. Jones said:

Raises the question ...what would Strad do ?

In my opinion, if Strad had a bandsaw and a router, we would all be repairing Strads and making nothing. Joking, but only a little.

[AtlVcl]

12 minutes ago, caerolle said:

Has it ever been settled whether or not the harsh vibrations from using power tools negatively affects the wood wrt its 'sonic' qualities? I have seen a few statements both ways on that, but don't know that I have seen a final answer. Or is such a consensus even possible in this area?

Personally, if I were going to make a violin, I would probably use a scroll saw for roughing out the neck, maybe even for the plate outlines, but that would be about it. Mostly because I seriously do not like using power tools, but also seems to take some of the romance out of the whole thing. Of course, if you are trying to make a living, or are committed to filling a social need (could there every be too many great violins?), then if you get to the exact same endpoint, that is a different thing from being a hobbyist.

1)  I seriously doubt it.

2)  Tony S. had to make a living, so I seriously doubt he was concerned with any "romance" in his workaday life.  Common sense tells me if power tools had been available he'd have used them to his economic advantage.

[Violadamore]

There's a similar question in other crafts like blacksmithing.  I feel that using power tools for anything formerly performed by unskilled muscle is okay, but using an expert system to replace expertise isn't. 

[Don Noon]

13 minutes ago, caerolle said:

Has it ever been settled whether or not the harsh vibrations from using power tools negatively affects the wood wrt its 'sonic' qualities? I have seen a few statements both ways on that, but don't know that I have seen a final answer. Or is such a consensus even possible in this area?

It is equally logical that harsh vibrations of power tools improve the sound... and it's equally impossible to prove.

 

Regarding power tools, I have no philosophical problem with them.  Yes, I can understand the romance bit, and do enjoy hand-carving plates.  But at this point, with damaged wrists and double carpal tunnel surgery, I need to use power tools as much as I can in order to keep making.  No chance that I could hand-cut purfling grooves without suffering greatly.

Re: what would Strad do... IMO he would use whatever tools would help improve efficiency, as long as quality was not negatively affected.

[MikeC]

 Just a hobbyist pint of view.  My only power tool is a cordless drill for holes and an electric jigsaw, everything else is hand tools.  Other modern amenities are electric light,  kerosine heater and window unit air conditioner.    I like the quiet and feel of a gouge or plane going through wood but if it was high production quantity I might nice to have a band saw, drill press and sanding disk and drum sander.   I don't see much use for any other power tools.   I don't think tool vibrations are going to shake wood cells apart and have an effect on sound.  I don't subscribe to the homeopathic theory of violin tone effects.  

In the video posted above it's remarkable how shaky his workbench is.  I had to screw mine to the wall so it wouldn't move.  And if it's warm enough to walk around in short sleeves why in the world would you put on a heavy long sleeve coat while doing all that high exertion manual sawing!   And that U shaped draw knife seems like that would be awkward to use but he makes it work.  

[caerolle]

1 hour ago, Don Noon said:

It is equally logical that harsh vibrations of power tools improve the sound... and it's equally impossible to prove.

 

Regarding power tools, I have no philosophical problem with them.  Yes, I can understand the romance bit, and do enjoy hand-carving plates.  But at this point, with damaged wrists and double carpal tunnel surgery, I need to use power tools as much as I can in order to keep making.  No chance that I could hand-cut purfling grooves without suffering greatly.

Re: what would Strad do... IMO he would use whatever tools would help improve efficiency, as long as quality was not negatively affected.

Lol on the first point. Perhaps there is a market for some savvy entrepreneur for making power tools tuned to A or something?

On the more serious note, I am so sorry. Being injured is awful, and having a permanent disability wrt something you love to do and from which you get great fulfillment is the worst. My Mom is 82, and her body is just shot from decades of hard manual labor, but if she had one wish it would be to become 40 years younger so she could throw bales of hay and load feed and set end posts and otherwise dig in the dirt. That love of hard work did not make it to me either genetically or through modeling, though. I do have an issue that prevents me from really spending much time playing violin, which I hate, because I really, really love playing, so I can at relate a little.

Carol

[Barnes Ziegler]

1 hour ago, Stavanger said:

what makes a violin truly "hand made?" 

Once I saw a video on youtube about the Stentor Violinmaking company in China. It was interesting because most of the instruments are made by hand. Even the outline. I'd say that the most violinmakers usually use more power tools than this factory.

I think that the difference between a factory and a craftsman is not (and, since the beginning of mass production of musical instruments, never was) the quantity of work taken out by hand or machine, but the understanding of the object. The violinmaker can take his time to understand the material and adapt his work to it (arching shape, thicknesses etc.), being able, in the best case scenario, to make the instrument sound at it's best, while the factory worker has to make 10 archings a day according to standards that are preset.

I use only a Bandsaw to cut out the scroll and the outline of the plates, because the machine is much quicker and more precise than I could be. For the rest I think that hand tools make more precise and cleaner work than machines do. For example a jointer can never make flat and smooth surface as good as a quality handplane. 

In the end I think we're all in it because we love to feel the plane gliding over the wood and the gouge diving in to the plate and to see how some solid blocks of wood becomes something well sounding and delicate. So I don't think that we will loose a lot of the traditional working methods to machines, also because musicians are still wanting to have instruments made by craftsmen not factories.

[Michael_Molnar]

1 hour ago, Violadamore said:

There's a similar question in other crafts like blacksmithing.  I feel that using power tools for anything formerly performed by unskilled muscle is okay, but using an expert system to replace expertise isn't. 

It takes another kind of expertise to understand the limits of an expert system and work around them.  I bet there are some aspects of blacksmithing that would benefit with modern tools and machines. My grandfather was a shoemaker from Hungary and he swore that only handmade boots and shoes were the best. Moreover, they had to be made only with natural leather.  

[caerolle]

44 minutes ago, Barnes Ziegler said:

Once I saw a video on youtube about the Stentor Violinmaking company in China. It was interesting because most of the instruments are made by hand. Even the outline. I'd say that the most violinmakers usually use more power tools than this factory.

I think that the difference between a factory and a craftsman is not (and, since the beginning of mass production of musical instruments, never was) the quantity of work taken out by hand or machine, but the understanding of the object. The violinmaker can take his time to understand the material and adapt his work to it (arching shape, thicknesses etc.), being able, in the best case scenario, to make the instrument sound at it's best, while the factory worker has to make 10 archings a day according to standards that are preset.

I use only a Bandsaw to cut out the scroll and the outline of the plates, because the machine is much quicker and more precise than I could be. For the rest I think that hand tools make more precise and cleaner work than machines do. For example a jointer can never make flat and smooth surface as good as a quality handplane. 

In the end I think we're all in it because we love to feel the plane gliding over the wood and the gouge diving in to the plate and to see how some solid blocks of wood becomes something well sounding and delicate. So I don't think that we will loose a lot of the traditional working methods to machines, also because musicians are still wanting to have instruments made by craftsmen not factories.

Other than the grunting and passing of gas, the quiet compared with using power tools means a lot to me. But again, I am not spending all day every day carving something out of hard, dense wood, so I can't really judge anyone, lol.

[uncle duke]

54 minutes ago, Barnes Ziegler said:

Once I saw a video on youtube about the Stentor Violinmaking company in China. It was interesting because most of the instruments are made by hand. Even the outline. I'd say that the most violinmakers usually use more power tools than this factory.

One thing they didn't show was how the purfling channels were cut.  Wondering about that.

I used to worship the bandsaw.  These days I don't have the space I'd like so it's all handsaw work - good for motor skill therapy.  I use an electric hand drill for the peg holes and a dremel set up for the channel.  If one chooses to make their own pegs and chinrests then a lathe and a motor/disk sander become invaluable. 

If it weren't for dremel I'd given this hobby up long ago.

[Violadamore]

47 minutes ago, Michael_Molnar said:

It takes another kind of expertise to understand the limits of an expert system and work around them.  I bet there are some aspects of blacksmithing that would benefit with modern tools and machines. My grandfather was a shoemaker from Hungary and he swore that only handmade boots and shoes were the best. Moreover, they had to be made only with natural leather.  

IMHO, 1.  Rolls and power hammers have their place in a forge, as do blowers (though I much prefer a cranked Champion to an electric).  So can a bench grinder.  Mills, shape grinders, and anything CNC or needing a mike to set up are "machine shop".

2.  Your grandfather was a wise man.  All my best shoes are bespoke leather, and they last (pun intended).

I feel that similar considerations apply to all fine woodworking, and other fine handicrafts.  If it lacks human artistry as an input, it isn't fine.  People will pay a premium, not just for the quality, but to feel a sense of transcendence in the mastery applied.

[TimRobinson]

As one who is returning to sailing after 50 years, is the difference between power tools and human power analogous to the difference between power boats and yachts?  Both will get you there, but in one it is about the journey.

Tim

 

[Violadamore]

9 minutes ago, TimRobinson said:

As one who is returning to sailing after 50 years, is the difference between power tools and human power analogous to the difference between power boats and yachts?  Both will get you there, but in one it is about the journey.

Tim

 

IMHO, you truly understand.  And I never got covered in oil or busted a knuckle pulling a sheet around a winch.

[Johnmasters]

4 hours ago, Stavanger said:

We all know that the world is evolving, and new modern tools are easily available to make a violinmaker's life easier. 
However, what makes a violin truly "hand made?" Is it only the hard-core traditionalists' violins that are truly hand made, or is it considered "OK" to use powertools for some applications? Where is the transition between "OK" and "not OK"? Is a electric scroll saw "OK"? How about electric purfling cutters? Or milling machine? How about CNC? 

How will this affect the future of violin making? Not even considering the chinese bulk-production here. On a individual maker's level, is it only the final outcome that counts, or is also the "tradition in the making" a part of the process? A bit accentuated, but for the sake of discussion putting it out here: If it's all about the outcome, what makes a modern Italian violin any different from it's Chinese counterpart? 

Curios to hear what people think about the subject. Do you use powertools? If yes, for what applications?
(yes, I know this is highly subjective - and I am not asking these questions to point any fingers at anyone. I am truly curios what people think about the subject matter.)

I think that hand-made really means made by the eye and mind of the maker.  (Not made piecemeal by a bunch of peoplde)  To me it is silly to avoid any convenicnes in the way of tools.  Do you ride a bicycle (or better yet,  walk)  to all of your shops and grocery stores?   And having a large shop like Strad and having apprentices doing all the grunt work,  is that no longer "hand-made."   

[Johnmasters]

3 hours ago, Violadamore said:

There's a similar question in other crafts like blacksmithing.  I feel that using power tools for anything formerly performed by unskilled muscle is okay, but using an expert system to replace expertise isn't. 

I use my CNC to carve plates.  I think there was skill involved.  I designed and made the CNC machine myself.   I also invented the spreadsheet software to generate the CNC codes.   I think most people could have carved these plates themselves,   It seems a low-skill operation to do so.  But I don't think many of you could have made the machine and software.

[Violadamore]

51 minutes ago, Johnmasters said:

I use my CNC to carve plates.  I think there was skill involved.  I designed and made the CNC machine myself.   I also invented the spreadsheet software to generate the CNC codes.   I think most people could have carved these plates themselves,   It seems a low-skill operation to do so.  But I don't think many of you could have made the machine and software.

Ummm....I'd agree in principle.....but that's a separate arena of human potential entirely from what's being discussed.  Designing, building, and programming a painting robot to copy a classic painting may make you an Edison, but it doesn't make you a Rembrandt, any more than coding a composition program makes you Mozart, or building an aircraft makes you a bird.

I'll also note that there's an enormous and varied amount of technical/professional expertise loose on MN.  This seems to be one of the things STEM people turn to after filing for retirement and emptying their desks into the dumpster for good and all.

[edi malinaric]

3 hours ago, Violadamore said:

 -snip-  or busted a knuckle pulling a sheet around a winch.

Hi Violadamore - mmm - my knuckles clearly remember that....

cheers edi

[Carl Johnson]

The works of David Pye in particular "The Nature and Art of Workmanship" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Pye_(furniture) might prove interesting. It certainly seams Pye's idea of the Workmanship of Risk - " workmanship using any kind of technique or apparatus, in which the quality of the result is not predetermined, but depends on the judgment, dexterity and care which the maker exercises as he works" is applicable to the approach of some modern violin makers.

Walter Benjamin's classic essay "The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction" https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/ge/benjamin.htm might prove interesting as well if one views a violin as a work of art, not as a purely mechanical object

[Violadamore]

1 hour ago, edi malinaric said:

Hi Violadamore - mmm - my knuckles clearly remember that....

cheers edi

Compared to wielding a wrench in an engine compartment, trimming sail is a breeze (unless it's not a mere breeze you're doing it in, of course). 

[caerolle]

16 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

Compared to wielding a wrench in an engine compartment, trimming sail is a breeze (unless it's not a mere breeze you're doing it in, of course). 

Sailing sounds like a mighty fine thing if you are sitting on the deck with a nice cool adult beverage in your hand. Being a deckhand, not so much.