Hamberger Adjustable Soundpost for Violin

[violguy]

[PASEWICZ]

2 hours ago, violguy said:

Methinks much tastier than Crow.

Here it is turkey...leftovers...

[David Burgess]

I ate some kinda road kill for Thanksgiving dinner. Couldn't identify exactly what it was, since it had gotten rather two-dimensional from being run over so many times. Mighta had a white stripe down the back.

[The Violin Beautiful]

A couple of thoughts:

1) If you are a manufacturer/inventor of a new product that you hope will revolutionize the industry, you have an uphill battle against time-honored tradition. To convince the professionals that your product is better, it takes solid and easily repeatable evidence; grandiose claims only add to suspicions. But to have a chance of support, it’s crucial to get the professionals on board. Antagonizing them, especially by suggesting their work is faulty, will only alienate the people whose support you need most.

2) It’s certainly worth thinking of ways to make things simpler, but there are times where efforts to solve one problem can lead to different ones. For comparison, consider the self-rehairing bow: it was intended to simplify the rehair process and make it possible for players to maintain their own bows. The idea sounded appealing, but the product had issues that made it ultimately fail. Even with some of the world’s best archetiers making the bows, the concept never won people over.

Making the sound post easy to install and adjust sounds great as an idea, but there are some major challenges to overcome to  make it possible. Learning to cut a good soundpost takes a serious investment of time and diligence, but a good luthier can cut one quickly and reliably enough that most customers feel their money is well spent and their quality playing time is maximized. 

[Wolfgang Hamberger]

On 11/27/2019 at 7:40 PM, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Mr. Hamberger, to the contrary, I understand exactly how your post works.  The problem here, as with the other sound post "product" that is out there, is you fail to understand how a real sound post works,  or for that matter how wood works when the relative humidity changes.  If you do a bit of reading, my comments will start to make sense.  This is a very common problem with these sound posts, the "patented bassbar", or the synthetic hair that is out there.....they are all "invented" by people that have very little, if any, expertise in the field they are claiming to revolutionize.....your quarrel is not with me or any of those commenting:  the realities are there, not being familiar with the concepts is the source of your frustration.

Mr. Pasewicz, I can´t remember we have ever met. Yet you know that I "have very little, if any, expertise in the field they are claiming to revolutionize..." You are very welcome to visit us here in Germany. It will be my pleasure to introduce myself and my invention to you!

[martin swan]

3 hours ago, The Violin Beautiful said:

A couple of thoughts:

1) If you are a manufacturer/inventor of a new product that you hope will revolutionize the industry, you have an uphill battle against time-honored tradition. To convince the professionals that your product is better, it takes solid and easily repeatable evidence; grandiose claims only add to suspicions. But to have a chance of support, it’s crucial to get the professionals on board. Antagonizing them, especially by suggesting their work is faulty, will only alienate the people whose support you need most.

2) It’s certainly worth thinking of ways to make things simpler, but there are times where efforts to solve one problem can lead to different ones. For comparison, consider the self-rehairing bow: it was intended to simplify the rehair process and make it possible for players to maintain their own bows. The idea sounded appealing, but the product had issues that made it ultimately fail. Even with some of the world’s best archetiers making the bows, the concept never won people over.

Making the sound post easy to install and adjust sounds great as an idea, but there are some major challenges to overcome to  make it possible. Learning to cut a good soundpost takes a serious investment of time and diligence, but a good luthier can cut one quickly and reliably enough that most customers feel their money is well spent and their quality playing time is maximized. 

This is a fascinating discussion, but while Jerry dominates it and roars at everyone who has anything positive to say, it can go nowhere.

To answer your post specifically, there are plenty of professionals already onboard - not a big proportion of the people who fit soundposts, but a few very serious top-end people amongst the number who would turn to these posts in specific situations. 

The self-rehairing bow didn't fail because it was a bad idea but because it had an uphill battle against time-honoured tradition. It did very well indeed for a while, and the idea was adopted by a number of makers. Ultimately I believe it was threatening to the bread and butter income of people in the trade.

[jacobsaunders]

I think that probably the main drawback is that such a post encourages a species, those who manically tinker with their sound posts, who need anything but encouragement, as many of us know from personal experience

[martin swan]

31 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I think that probably the main drawback is that such a post encourages a species, those who manically tinker with their sound posts, who need anything but encouragement, as many of us know from personal experience

I agree, it's a conundrum.

These posts should only be used by professionals who are prepared to put the time into really learning how to get the best out of them.

But I think the idea that amateurs are buying them purely in order to "jack up" their Golden Period Strads to the point of cracking the tops is just batty.

I know one keen amateur collector who like to investigate set-up possibilities - he has a few good violins and he uses these posts. But they are fitted for him by quite a high level luthier and he and the luthier are both by nature very conservative. I think in most cases they are looking for minimal tension at different positions.

[PASEWICZ]

8 hours ago, Wolfgang Hamberger said:

Mr. Pasewicz, I can´t remember we have ever met. Yet you know that I "have very little, if any, expertise in the field they are claiming to revolutionize..." You are very welcome to visit us here in Germany. It will be my pleasure to introduce myself and my invention to you!

Sure, I will absolutely do so when I am in the area.  Of course the field I refer is at the bench, and my knowledge is based mostly on your statements.  If you have been trained as a violin maker or restorer, I sincerely apologize for grouping you with the others. However, if that is the case I would be interested in where you received your training as some of your statements are antithetical to the reality that I and all of my colleagues are familiar.

[Violadamore]

10 hours ago, The Violin Beautiful said:

 a good luthier can cut one quickly and reliably enough that most customers feel their money is well spent

IMHO, cutting soundposts and bridges gives the customer a satisfying experience of bespoke handcrafting that they simply don't get when somebody pulls out a wrench to replace the brakes on their car, however much adjusting goes into it. 

[Larry F]

On 11/28/2019 at 4:59 PM, Davide Sora said:

 

 

cave_soundpost US Patent.pdf 269.23 kB · 7 downloads

 

 

[Wolfgang Hamberger]

22 hours ago, Lawrence Furse said:

I agree with Davide that spruce is the best material for a sound post.   A very long time ago I tried a hardwood dowel on a  new cello,  just because I had one around of the right diameter, and was curious.   I told no one of the substitution, but my wife, who plays the viola and has very good hearing, kept telling me it just didn't sound as good as  usual for one of my cellos.  Then unbeknownst to her, I replaced the dowel post with a spruce one, and she immediately noticed the difference, commented on how much better it sounded, though she didn't know what I had done.  Both were fit exactly the same.  Not exactly a scientific experiment, but it just reaffirmed my personal belief that spruce is the best material for a sound post.

 

 

What an impressive test! Hopefully your wife turned off the hairdryer while listening :-)

[Don Noon]

I have been ignoring this thread ever since the first page, since I couldn't imagine anything in here that would be beneficial to me... but after skimming the posts (the written ones), I have a few comments.

Adjustable thingies:  reminds me of my neighbor who played guitar.  He had cranked on his adjustable neck to where it crushed the neck wood and the fingerboard separated.  

Spruce vs. other materials:  for violins at least, the post itself doesn't do a whole lot, but by its position it can affect the admittance from the bridge and change the mode shapes of the plates slightly.  I have tried maple and bamboo as tests, and there was no observable difference.  For cellos, I could imagine that the mass difference might be more important.

Pivoty things:  movements of the plates aren't all that huge, and the vertical force is significant.  It's just my engineering judgement, but I think the friction of a ball/socket joint would render it effectively rigid.  To really get more flex, you likely need a flexure... which I have tried, also with no observable difference.

I'm not one of the pros with many decades of high-level experience, nor do I have some fanaticism about tradition, but the I can see no reason to abandon the old standard spruce post, and plenty of reasons NOT to.

 

[Michael Darnton]

I am not going to wade through seven pages of what looks like nonsense to find out,  but it appears that I might be the only person in this thread with any actual experience in the matter at hand.

I reset a fallen adjustable post from one of the several manufacturers who was kind enough to send me a kit of the appropriate tools and a quartet of samples to try on my own. People might refer to the chinrest/tailpiece thread currently running, where the bottom line of the thread should be read as that you don't change something without some resulting change. In this case, yes, the adjustable posts I tried sounded definitely different. The instruments sounded thinner, a bit similar to a very hard spruce post that was not well fit, which is probably what you should expect from a post made of a hard material which is not fit (points to Jerry for saying that ball joints are not the same as stable, cut ends.)

A friend who had also tried them suggested to me the one situation where he found them to be an advantage, so I tried several instruments with that problem, and though the specific issue was slightly improved, everything else was made worse. No one involved in the testing heard a bit of tonal advantage to the posts, though some technical aspects improved for the player--speed and response have already been mentioned. None of the testers wanted the post in their instrument, however, because of the tonal loss. Every one of these people was a player who was experienced playing a number of different instruments and was experienced in ranking them, not someone who had lived with a single one for years, and I do think that this kind of overarching experience makes a huge difference in tonal tests, which may explain some of the adjustable post "successes".

Regarding the danger aspect, the samples I tried had a fine thread and a very advantaged nut. I got no sense at all of the tension of the post. I think it would be easy to slowly jack the top and back dangerously far without any sense that the pressure on the violin had moved into the danger zone but I also think that most players would not want to make the adjustments themselves. I worry about helpful stand partners though, since those characters are always a danger.

[martin swan]

50 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said:

I am not going to wade through seven pages of what looks like nonsense to find out,  but it appears that I might be the only person in this thread with any actual experience in the matter at hand.

 

I have actual experience, and it conflicts with yours (I thought you would appreciate the brevity since it means you don't have to wade through 7 pages of what looks like nonsense) ...

So where do we go from there?

[Wolfgang Hamberger]

45 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said:

I am not going to wade through seven pages of what looks like nonsense to find out,  but it appears that I might be the only person in this thread with any actual experience in the matter at hand.

I reset a fallen adjustable post from one of the several manufacturers who was kind enough to send me a kit of the appropriate tools and a quartet of samples to try on my own. People might refer to the chinrest/tailpiece thread currently running, where the bottom line of the thread should be read as that you don't change something without some resulting change. In this case, yes, the adjustable posts I tried sounded definitely different. The instruments sounded thinner, a bit similar to a very hard spruce post that was not well fit, which is probably what you should expect from a post made of a hard material which is not fit (points to Jerry for saying that ball joints are not the same as stable, cut ends.)

A friend who had also tried them suggested to me the one situation where he found them to be an advantage, so I tried several instruments with that problem, and though the specific issue was slightly improved, everything else was made worse. No one involved in the testing heard a bit of tonal advantage to the posts, though some technical aspects improved for the player--speed and response have already been mentioned. None of the testers wanted the post in their instrument, however, because of the tonal loss. Every one of these people was a player who was experienced playing a number of different instruments and was experienced in ranking them, not someone who had lived with a single one for years, and I do think that this kind of overarching experience makes a huge difference in tonal tests, which may explain some of the adjustable post "successes".

Regarding the danger aspect, the samples I tried had a fine thread and a very advantaged nut. I got no sense at all of the tension of the post. I think it would be easy to slowly jack the top and back dangerously far without any sense that the pressure on the violin had moved into the danger zone but I also think that most players would not want to make the adjustments themselves. I worry about helpful stand partners though, since those characters are always a danger.

Hi Michael, I don´t know which sound post you have tested there, the only thing I know is it was not ours. I would know if I had shipped anything to you. Our sound post actually leads to the opposite of what you described: More warmth and depth. Say hello to Julian and Stephan!

[Michael Darnton]

You continue to use them and I continue to not use them?

[martin swan]

17 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said:

You continue to use them and I continue to not use them?

Yes that seems like a very peaceable solution, and a far cry from the ranting that we have heard on this thread.

For me the issues of potential abuse are a red herring. So much damage is done by over-tight conventional posts, I'm glad that everyone here is past that. 

This device and others like it will either stand the test of time or they won't. People can't be bullied into not using them.

For the record, I don't use them. The work that I have been involved in where they proved beneficial was of the "polishing a turd" type ie. trying to get a half-decent sound out of rather desperate instruments. I wasn't alone in finding that they worked very well for rather heavily built and tonally unsatisfactory Modern Italians (violins). Fortunately I have no voluntary dealings with such instruments, and if I'm unlucky enough to have to take something like that in trade, I would put it into auction.

The market for these posts would seem to be threefold ... 

collectors or institutions who are primarily concerned to achieve minimal tension and a perfect fit for reasons of conservation

owners of problem instruments who for whatever reason are stuck with those instruments

people who like to twiddle

[Jeffrey Holmes]

On 12/1/2019 at 10:50 AM, Michael Darnton said:

I am not going to wade through seven pages of what looks like nonsense to find out,  but it appears that I might be the only person in this thread with any actual experience in the matter at hand.

Actually, if I understand your post correctly, you are not the only person who has actual experience in the matter at hand. While I personally do not have experience with installation of the Hamberger post specifically, I do have experience with other adjustable posts... and we have done testing at Oberlin with one brand of them (so I know some of the contributors here have had at least that experience). That said, I'm sure there are a number of musicians that are happily using these sorts of products, but I have replaced them with spruce posts for every single one of my clients who had them installed at some point. The Hamberger post may be different (as I mentioned earlier, I've seen one or two that were installed in instruments), but some of the inherent similarities to other adjustable posts raises some concerns for me.

[PASEWICZ]

2 hours ago, martin swan said:

Yes that seems like a very peaceable solution, and a far cry from the ranting that we have heard on this thread.

For me the issues of potential abuse are a red herring. So much damage is done by over-tight conventional posts, I'm glad that everyone here is past that. 

This device and others like it will either stand the test of time or they won't. People can't be bullied into not using them.

For the record, I don't use them. The work that I have been involved in where they proved beneficial was of the "polishing a turd" type ie. trying to get a half-decent sound out of rather desperate instruments. I wasn't alone in finding that they worked very well for rather heavily built and tonally unsatisfactory Modern Italians (violins). Fortunately I have no voluntary dealings with such instruments, and if I'm unlucky enough to have to take something like that in trade, I would put it into auction.

The market for these posts would seem to be threefold ... 

collectors or institutions who are primarily concerned to achieve minimal tension and a perfect fit for reasons of conservation

owners of problem instruments who for whatever reason are stuck with those instruments

people who like to twiddle

Well we are all not that far off as it seems.  Martin, I was taking from your posts that you put these into daily use, my misconception.  Using these for conservation purposes, or as a tool that was mentioned earlier we can all agree on.  I am not sure I would use them as "turd polishers", but even that is a "why not try" situation although pretty expensive and maybe a bit unfortunate in description.

[martin swan]

I'm glad we can agree.

For clarity's sake I should say that I haven't experimented with the Hamberger post, and am only really discussing the broad lines as regards adjustable soundposts ... I suppose every model must be subtly different. The version I spent time with was developed in Taiwan in collaboration with Chi-Mei.

I do have a friend/colleague who has the Hamberger put into everything in his collection - I've had the opportunity to play a couple of these instruments before & after and they seem to work well.

[Don Noon]

An adjustable post is going to be heavier than a spruce post... so I would guess that it would act similar to a back plate that has a little more mass in the soundpost area... which seems like it might help in some cases, and not in others.

[David Burgess]

14 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

An adjustable post is going to be heavier than a spruce post... so I would guess that it would act similar to a back plate that has a little more mass in the soundpost area... which seems like it might help in some cases, and not in others.

I'll go along with that.

2 hours ago, martin swan said:

 

For me the issues of potential abuse are a red herring.

Not to me. Over my career, I have seen way too many incidents of damage from home handymen attempting to do things themselves.

[martin swan]

7 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

 

Not to me. Over my career, I have seen way too many incidents of damage from home handymen attempting to do things themselves.

Of course I agree with that.

The concern  is that musicians will be tempted to do DIY soundpost fits or adjustments in their own instruments. Personally I have no evidence that this is happening, and the sale of these posts is restricted to approved outlets where people well versed in post adjustment have had a bit of specific training etc etc.

Amateurs have done plenty of damage fitting overtight spruce posts and mashing f-hole edges with soundpost setters they don't know how to use.

Maybe a bit of a storm in a teacup?

[David Burgess]

6 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Maybe a bit of a storm in a teacup?

Not to me. Sure, there are a few "professionals" in our trade who are little better.