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mood2000

Hamberger Adjustable Soundpost for Violin

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31 minutes ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Agreed Martin, but why make products that any idiot can make a mess of, especially when they do not do the same job as the original?  Selling these as an antidote to responsibly taking care of your instrument and bow invites problems....especially as that claim is inaccurate.

"Installing the HSP is very easy, but we still recommend it being fitted by an expert.

The manufacturer will not be liable for damages on your instrument owing to inappropriate handling of Hamberger Soundpost"

 

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1 minute ago, martin swan said:

Damn I'm going to get these guys to put me on a retainer, I'm working so hard ...

You certainly are, and we already know they are not liable......

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Jerry, I think you overlooked one important feature of the hamburger soundpost. With the magnets (with rubber protection, of course) on both sides of the violin over the soundpost position, it will reset the soundpost tension to the near zero tension that it could easily collapse if you take all the pressure from the strings off, like how good fitted soundpost does. With that as a basis, I could gradually increase the soundpost tension to where I like the sound the most. And usually, it would be just either a small increment or not at all, so I don't see any harm using this soundpost. 

Talking about the sound, I recognise it's noticeably better and more stable. And I am more than happy to pay this amount of money for that alone. 

Anyway, I would love to know if anyone using hamburger soundpost and has a problem with the violin due to the post design and material, so I could be aware and re-evaluate the safety of using this thing. 

 

Edited by Thaneadpol

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On 2/7/2018 at 12:34 AM, Davide Sora said:
 

I foresee a lot of work in soundpost patching for restorers if the adjustment tools are left in the hands of "experimenters" violinists to play with the tension of these soundpost.

Please, not on my violins....:)
 

You forgot to mention millions of sound post cracks that have been caused by luthiers with the traditional sound post, long time before any adjustable sound post was available...

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On 2/7/2018 at 1:34 PM, Jerry Pasewicz said:

In trials the carbon fiber does not compare well to a traditional well done post.  There are a whole bunch of things we could do to instruments to protect them from the activity for which they were designed, but as a profession we would rather keep them playing to their potential.  

Thinking that 90% of set-up problem diagnosis is just hot air is a pretty whacky statement, I would suggest maybe your 10% accuracy rate is the issue.

It is quiet obvious that all the critical comments here come from people who have never tested or even seen our product. Otherwise you would have realized that our sound post contains no carbon at all. Actually we invested a lot of energy and money in testing many different materials. The outcome is a mix of different materials, a combination that transmits sound even better than spruce. This results in more tone quality, more colors, more flexibility and a wider range of dynamics. Very welcome if somebody wants to organize a sound adjustment competition: Traditional post compared to our adjustable one...

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On 8/11/2019 at 2:18 PM, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Having to change posts because of changes in RH also shows irresponsibility; maintain proper RH and this does not happen!

But to answer your question, a real post is put in by a professional who know how to set posts.  The very nature of a screw (a simple machine) makes it difficult to judge how tight the post is as you are jacking it up.  I referred to Theanandpol as your friend because you have him listed as your friend.  Your assertion that he can adjust this post due to RH changes assumes that adjusting this post can respond to humidity changes is the problem, as tension is only one part of what happens with humidity.  As these people, or you, adjust tighten these things expecting to get back what was there before the high RH, it will not happen as more things are going on than just tension changes.  This basic misunderstanding puts this screw jack inside an instrument with the person tightening and tightening trying to get something that will not happen!

This is another of your comments that show that you have not understood our sound post at all: Magnets from the exterior of the instrument automatically pull the sound post to zero tension length. From there you add a few hundreds of a millimeter of over length. Actually for the first time in history of violin making it is possible to work with a defined over length. And don´t forget that all the post cracks in the past have been caused by moving the post under tension. Our sound post is only moved while absolutely tension free, held by the exterior magnets.

Edited by Wolfgang Hamberger

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I'm stepping in here to ask things stay civil on this old thread... 

Obviously the manufacturer has a great deal of time and money dedicated to this device, so he'll want to defend the attributes he believes the product has... and has a right to do so... and those of us that have been installing and adjusting sound posts for several decades without problems may not agree and/or may be skeptical concerning the claimed "benefits" of the product.

Please try to keep claims within reason and avoid the absolutes (ie. one can argue that having a material "that transmits sound even better than spruce" is a good thing or a bad thing... and therefore "results in more tone quality, more colors, more flexibility and a wider range of dynamics" Too much subjectivity for my stomach). I've seen a good number of materials used over the years, often with similar claims. A soundpost does a great deal more than transmit sound.  You can certainly state your theory/intention, but facts not in evidence tend to make discussions into pointless arguments.

The reverse of the coin; A poorly installed wood post has the same potential to do damage as a player jacking up an adjustable post well past healthy limits "to improve response" or adjust for RH changes.  These types of devices are rather new to a very, very traditional trade.  They may certainly have their place in certain situations/conditions, but many of us who work with old classic instruments continue to tread carefully. Time will tell.

That said, although I've seen one or two, I personally have not felt the urge to adjust or install this particular product... so I'll leave comments pertaining to use to those with experience using them.

Coffee is served.  :)

 

 

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10 hours ago, Wolfgang Hamberger said:

This is another of your comments that show that you have not understood our sound post at all: Magnets from the exterior of the instrument automatically pull the sound post to zero tension length. From there you add a few hundreds of a millimeter of over length. Actually for the first time in history of violin making it is possible to work with a defined over length. And don´t forget that all the post cracks in the past have been caused by moving the post under tension. Our sound post is only moved while absolutely tension free, held by the exterior magnet

Mr. Hamberger, to the contrary, I understand exactly how your post works.  The problem here, as with the other sound post "product" that is out there, is you fail to understand how a real sound post works,  or for that matter how wood works when the relative humidity changes.  If you do a bit of reading, my comments will start to make sense.  This is a very common problem with these sound posts, the "patented bassbar", or the synthetic hair that is out there.....they are all "invented" by people that have very little, if any, expertise in the field they are claiming to revolutionize.....your quarrel is not with me or any of those commenting:  the realities are there, not being familiar with the concepts is the source of your frustration.

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I see abit similarity to adjustable bridges (bass or other stringed instruments) or adjusrtable truss rods. They all had their reasons to emerge and survived even though there are still folks who would never use one. One problem with these is that they often make players think thay can adjust them whenever they want. Lots of DIY work withut knowing what's really going on (trying to lower action with trussrod being one major misconception) lead to damaged instruments and I suppose having this soundpost could result in soemone trying what happens if he thightens it a bit more... and bit more and... for that reason traditional makers would prefer having traditional post that only real pro will adjust.

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26 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Surely, fitting a sound post must be a piece of piss anyway, if you saw the bottom third of the violin away

Perfect. I am going to invent a violin with a removable bottom third.

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2 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

Perfect. I am going to invent a violin with a removable bottom third.

Gemunder made a Bass with a hinged door on the treble C-bout rib that one could open for post adjustments.

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7 hours ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Mr. Hamberger, to the contrary, I understand exactly how your post works.  The problem here, as with the other sound post "product" that is out there, is you fail to understand how a real sound post works,  or for that matter how wood works when the relative humidity changes.  If you do a bit of reading, my comments will start to make sense.  This is a very common problem with these sound posts, the "patented bassbar", or the synthetic hair that is out there.....they are all "invented" by people that have very little, if any, expertise in the field they are claiming to revolutionize.....your quarrel is not with me or any of those commenting:  the realities are there, not being familiar with the concepts is the source of your frustration.

Out of curiosity, since you initially said the post was carbon fiber, when it is not, do you mind explaining why this new composite material will "work" worse than "wood?" (I assume spruce) 

Also, do you know why these would sound better, if they are not real sound posts? Just curious if you have any substance behind "I know how it works, you don't know anything." 

Personally I am considering this, the only reason I ask. 

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To all open minded among you: There is a very recent bachelor thesis about sound post and its function in general with one full chapter only testing and measuring our adjustable post and comparing it to the traditional sound post. Some people here in this forum might not like the conclusions... The thesis I’m referring to was made at the “Staatliche Hochschule für Geigenbau in Markneukirchen“.  Please contact the school directly if you are interested. Not sure if I am allowed to put it online...

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1 hour ago, Porteroso said:

Out of curiosity, since you initially said the post was carbon fiber, when it is not, do you mind explaining why this new composite material will "work" worse than "wood?" (I assume spruce) 

Also, do you know why these would sound better, if they are not real sound posts? Just curious if you have any substance behind "I know how it works, you don't know anything." 

Personally I am considering this, the only reason I ask. 

“I know how it works, you don’t know anything” is not a quote, please do not attribute it to me.

To your question, there is a great deal of substance described in this thread, and 500 years of track record.  The overall point is that the design does not show an understanding of how a post works, and therefore does not take into account those subtleties...I do not care much about the material as such when the design misses the mark so dramatically; although there have been countless tests with different materials through the centuries.   Also, I do not accept your  hypothetical of “why these would sound better”... I do not believe they do or can.

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9 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Surely, fitting a sound post must be a piece of piss anyway, if you saw the bottom third of the violin away

Are you even serious right now? I really hope not. As obviously as it looks in the video, the bottom part is removed to reveal how the installation of the post works. The process happens through the f-hole. After reading through this thread, I am really surprised at how bitter some of the luthiers are about this product. 

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4 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

Has anybody ever done a systematic study on how different sound post materials work?  

Is spruce always the best or is there a different optimum material for various violins?

Nobody did any study, but everyone is an ‘expert’ with strong opinions.

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12 hours ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Mr. Hamberger, to the contrary, I understand exactly how your post works.  The problem here, as with the other sound post "product" that is out there, is you fail to understand how a real sound post works,  or for that matter how wood works when the relative humidity changes.  If you do a bit of reading, my comments will start to make sense.  This is a very common problem with these sound posts, the "patented bassbar", or the synthetic hair that is out there.....they are all "invented" by people that have very little, if any, expertise in the field they are claiming to revolutionize.....your quarrel is not with me or any of those commenting:  the realities are there, not being familiar with the concepts is the source of your frustration.

@Jerry Pasewicz I'm curious About the drawbacks/misunderstandings you see in this Sound post design. I have no personal experience with this type of Sound post, but I have a Violinist friend who is extremely sensitive to Sound and a very good Player, who has similar Sound Posts (Anima Nova) installed in all his Instruments now and swears they were a Major improvement, so I'm not automatically sceptical. Ofcourse I do not now how well the previous Sound Posts were fitted.

I cannot understand how the changes that Wood goes through because of changes in relative humidity mkes wooden Sound Posts better. As the changes along the grain are almost negligable compared to the changes across the grain, a wooden Sound post does not offer an Advantage compared to this design, as it, like These modern Sound Posts does not shrink or grow along with the plates. If you mean that Players will be cranking up the post when the plates are loose and Forget to relax it when the plates become tight again, then I see the Point of your fears. Is that it?

Otherwise the big difference I see in this Kind of design and the Standard wooden Sound post is the self adjusting surfaces that touch the top and back plates, Always making a good fit. Is there anything else I'm missing? Do you use the rigidness of These surfaces in your Sound Adjustments, so that you lose this as an Option for Sound Adjustment with such a Sound post?

I've seen a lot of damage done by badly fitted Sound Posts by professional lutiers. In the last two years, I've seen one newly made violin with a Sound post crack beause of this and two Cellos with badly damaged tops so that Fitting a Sound post properly has become very difficult. I would say the Damage done by badly fitted Sound Posts is much bigger than the potential Damage through perfectly fitting, but overly tight Sound Posts, but what do I know, I'm only a Player.

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I think that wooden post is time proven concept and there's no need to defend it's usefulness.

Not all professional luthiers are good luthiers so you want to get the soundpost work done by real experienced luthier. I've seen so much damage on cars done by professional (even authorized) car mechanics...

What Jerry etc. are trying to say is that soundpost adjustment is not just about tightening the post but also finding the right position and that takes substantially more time than just jacking it up, so cutting the spruce post is not a big factor for experienced luthier.

The problem with humidity is that if you care properly for your insrument (e.g keep it in proper humidity all the time) you won't need adjustments because of that. And if that happend the adjustment required will likely include finding new position and not just cranking the post tighter or looser.

Not all damage due to improper soundpost is done by luthiers, many well-meaning DIY-ers did a lot of damage as well. COmmon folks don't have the tools to access the post so they seldom cause damage. Easily adjustable posts like this invite players to try and adjust it themselves whenever they feel the urge (saving the dough being the big factor here) and that may become new wave of soundpost damage...

I'm not against this at all but, IMO, the burden of proof is on the inventor and few good reviews and list of possible improvements are not a proof.

Time will tell...

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@HoGo Thank you for your Response on Jerrys behalf. I view good Sound post Setting as a higher form of art! Im dutch, and in dutch the Sound post is called "stapel". One of the expressions coming from luterie that has entered Mainstream language use is that of something causing you to become "stapelgek", which means "it drives me crazy like Setting a Sound post does".

I believe many lutiers underestimate the difficulty of it, and also the Impact it can have on the behaviour of an Instrument. I talked to a professional lutier recently who maintained that it doesn't make much difference at all when you move the Sound post, and therefore he doesn't really care About it much. This combined with the number of Cellos with badly damaged tops that I have to tell my students not to buy because they Need expensive surgery because of a Problem you can't Always yet see from outside leads me to believe this Kind of Sound post really isn't such a bad idea. On top of that, on my newly made Cello, I needed two Sound Posts in the first year, after that a new Sound post every one/two years for a period of six years or so. It has now been stable relatively Long, but I'm sure I've spent a lot more than the Hamberger Costs on Sound Posts, so yes, there is a financial incentive too. But I'd pay my lutier for making proper adjustments to the hamberger too, you know, mine have a really good ear and lots of experience in sound Adjustments. They hear things I can't perceive under the ear immediately, but usually after taking it for a spin afterwards, I notice they were right.

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Boroguecello, you are on the right track, and Hogo is correct.  

There are things we do with a real soundpost that you cannot do with these because of the design.  Using the rigidity of the surfaces is one key advantage.  Also, as Hogo touched on and I mentioned earlier in the thread and the year, humidity is being used as a justification for these contraptions, which in itself shows the misunderstanding of the effects of humidity on the instrument.  Just jacking up the post to try to solve the problems caused by changes in RH is like putting a bandaid on child’s cheek to remedy chicken pox.....it might sound better, but.....

This is a quote from one of the inventors:

”And don´t forget that all the post cracks in the past have been caused by moving the post under tension.”

I think everyone familiar with instruments understands the folly here.....With this kind of total misunderstanding of the subject matter, it is hard to take them seriously. 

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3 hours ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Boroguecello, you are on the right track, and Hogo is correct.  

There are things we do with a real soundpost that you cannot do with these because of the design.  Using the rigidity of the surfaces is one key advantage.  Also, as Hogo touched on and I mentioned earlier in the thread and the year, humidity is being used as a justification for these contraptions, which in itself shows the misunderstanding of the effects of humidity on the instrument.  Just jacking up the post to try to solve the problems caused by changes in RH is like putting a bandaid on child’s cheek to remedy chicken pox.....it might sound better, but.....

This is a quote from one of the inventors:

”And don´t forget that all the post cracks in the past have been caused by moving the post under tension.”

I think everyone familiar with instruments understands the folly here.....With this kind of total misunderstanding of the subject matter, it is hard to take them seriously. 

If you quote someone, don’t just select a portion that makes a completely different point in your advantage. The quote goes on:

“Our sound post is only moved while absolutely tension free, held by the exterior magnets.”

Jerry, you have absolutely no idea about this product, so until you test one, like some of us did, keep your opinions to yourself.

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32 minutes ago, cellopera said:

If you quote someone, don’t just select a portion that makes a completely different point in your advantage. The quote goes on:

“Our sound post is only moved while absolutely tension free, held by the exterior magnets.”

Jerry, you have absolutely no idea about this product, so until you test one, like some of us did, keep your opinions to yourself.

Hardly!  You can quote anything you want, the meaning of:

”And don´t forget that all the post cracks in the past have been caused by moving the post under tension.”

Doesn’t change!  What does change is the perception of remaining credibility when one follows up that demonstrably ridiculous statement with another about moving soundposts entirely tension free!  Do you have any experience at a bench?  Obviously not.  Until you do junior, perhaps stick to commenting on things you have a clue about.

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