PASEWICZ Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 43 minutes ago, Jim Bress said: With the hypothesis that you can’t put the genie back in the bottle, what guidelines should be given to an owner of a historically relevant cello (for example) so that the use of an adjustable sound post will not put the instrument at risk? You could recommend not using it. This advice would be for the musician that’s going use it with or without your help. I do not believe it would take much. Understanding what changes in RH does to instruments would pretty rapidly illustrate the folly of these things as they only deal with a small part of the issue. After that, an explanation of how a soundpost works and how these things are not designed to work like a real post, so therefore cannot work like a real post would help. Finally, circling around back to the explanation that taking a little responsibility to control the RH would not only take away the post tension issue these things were designed to exploit, but would erase all of the other issues that changes in RH can cause; not only to instruments, but to bows, pianos, hardwood floors, furniture, etc, as well as help with the comfort of those of us with skin. Of course fitting a good post and adjusting it properly would undoubtably work without all the preaching..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violadamore Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 I doubt than anyone has seriously investigated it, but wouldn't having an ordinary soundpost made of spruce (just like the top usually is), possibly exert some compensatory effect that wouldn't occur with a humidity-immune metal or plastic-composite post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Goldsmith Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 7 minutes ago, Violadamore said: I doubt than anyone has seriously investigated it, but wouldn't having an ordinary soundpost made of spruce (just like the top usually is), possibly exert some compensatory effect that wouldn't occur with a humidity-immune metal or plastic-composite post? Err..yes...that is what we luthiers investigate....fixate on etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violadamore Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 16 minutes ago, Melvin Goldsmith said: Err..yes...that is what we luthiers investigate....fixate on etc Oh, goody!! Well, does it or doesn't it? [Steps back a bit, as she knows from experience that luthiers may become vicious when cornered.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Goldsmith Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 32 minutes ago, Violadamore said: Oh, goody!! Well, does it or doesn't it? [Steps back a bit, as she knows from experience that luthiers may become vicious when cornered.] or luthiers saunter off when bored Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violadamore Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 Just now, Melvin Goldsmith said: or luthiers saunter off when bored True. But I still haven't seen any papers specifically on soundpost materials studies. Where might I find them? My observation about the possible compensation effects was a serious one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 8 hours ago, Jerry Pasewicz said: The belief that this is true shows a pretty basic misunderstanding of how instruments react with changes in RH......jacking these things up under this misunderstanding is an extremely valid argument why they are so dangerous. Sorry Martin, you went too far. Not a clue what you are talking about ... No-one talked about "jacking up these things". We get that you don't like them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 6 hours ago, Melvin Goldsmith said: Err..yes...that is what we luthiers investigate....fixate on etc Why knock yourself out when you can just read it in a book - changes in humidity have a negligible effect on longitudinal shrinkage in spruce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delabo Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 Could over adjustment put a split in the top or bottom ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASEWICZ Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 2 hours ago, martin swan said: Not a clue what you are talking about ... No-one talked about "jacking up these things". We get that you don't like them. Yes Martin, jack up, it means to lift. That is what you are doing when you adjust the tension for higher humidity that your friend mentioned in his post and you referenced....you are making the post longer...do you not understand the synonym? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 How is that different from fitting a long post when the arching is high and forgetting to exchange it at the end of the season? Incidentally I have never met Theanandpol, but I do know of him, I know he has a fine violin, and I take his observations at face value, rather than assuming he's a cretin. His words were "maintain the ideal soundpost tension" not "jack the f***er up fit to burst". . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delabo Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 43 minutes ago, martin swan said: How is that different from fitting a long post when the arching is high and forgetting to exchange it at the end of the season? Does forgetting to change the longer post cause splits to occur as the violin contracts ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 Just now, Delabo said: Does forgetting to change the longer post cause splits to occur as the violin contracts ? I think it's more of an issue with cellos ... but putting a very tight post in anything is never a good idea IMHO, wood or kryptonite or whatever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASEWICZ Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 44 minutes ago, martin swan said: How is that different from fitting a long post when the arching is high and forgetting to exchange it at the end of the season? Incidentally I have never met Theanandpol, but I do know of him, I know he has a fine violin, and I take his observations at face value, rather than assuming he's a cretin. His words were "maintain the ideal soundpost tension" not "jack the f***er up fit to burst". . Having to change posts because of changes in RH also shows irresponsibility; maintain proper RH and this does not happen! But to answer your question, a real post is put in by a professional who know how to set posts. The very nature of a screw (a simple machine) makes it difficult to judge how tight the post is as you are jacking it up. I referred to Theanandpol as your friend because you have him listed as your friend. Your assertion that he can adjust this post due to RH changes assumes that adjusting this post can respond to humidity changes is the problem, as tension is only one part of what happens with humidity. As these people, or you, adjust tighten these things expecting to get back what was there before the high RH, it will not happen as more things are going on than just tension changes. This basic misunderstanding puts this screw jack inside an instrument with the person tightening and tightening trying to get something that will not happen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASEWICZ Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 13 minutes ago, martin swan said: I think it's more of an issue with cellos ... but putting a very tight post in anything is never a good idea IMHO, wood or kryptonite or whatever The basic difference is, the very nature of a screw means you cannot tell how tight it is. And, with these things, as the humidity changes so does the ease of turning the damn screw.......so any hope of getting feedback as one does with a real post is lost...so the feedback is the cracking sound! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 18 minutes ago, Jerry Pasewicz said: As these people, or you, adjust tighten these things expecting to get back what was there before the high RH, it will not happen as more things are going on than just tension changes. This basic misunderstanding puts this screw jack inside an instrument with the person tightening and tightening trying to get something that will not happen! It's surely obvious to anyone with half a brain cell that it's a bad idea for an untrained person to misuse these devices. We can all agree on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASEWICZ Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 1 minute ago, martin swan said: It's surely obvious to anyone with half a brain cell that it's a bad idea for an untrained person to misuse these devices. We can all agree on that. Yes we can Martin, and being as you cannot feel what you are doing with these things, they simply cannot work like real sounposts, and they can be adjusted by anyone that owns a pencil, a trained person would never use these devices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cellopera Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 Ok guys, this thread is becoming ridiculous. From a Principal Cellist in Germany: Mr. Hamberger has installed my soundpost at the recommendation of a colleague who plays on a Gagliano violin (who of course has it installed as well). This was in December 2017. Since then, the instrument (French ca. 1820) has been more stable than ever, maintaining the sound quality throughout the seasons. To be more clear: the instrument is easier to play, the response of the lower strings is much quicker and crispier, the higher register sings better and more naturally, the resonance has improved by at least 20%. As a musician, I rely on my ears and can honestly tell you, I will NEVER go back to a wooden soundpost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Darnton Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 I would have a hard time having confidence in a so-called "adjuster" who told me he couldn't tell if a post were too tight or lose by the way an instrument sounds and feels! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASEWICZ Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 5 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said: I would have a hard time having confidence in a so-called "adjuster" who told me he couldn't tell if a post were too tight or lose by the way an instrument sounds and feels! Do you know if the same holds true with a soundpost that has ball joints at the ends? So as an "adjuster" without that knowledge, how could you have confidence in yourself, or for that matter, making that statement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Darnton Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 I am pretty sure I would based on what I know post pressure does, but by coincidence I get to find out tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 1 minute ago, Jerry Pasewicz said: Do you know if the same holds true with a soundpost that has ball joints at the end? Jerry I don't know how many conventional soundposts you fitted before you felt you were thoroughly in tune with the process, probably a few thousand, but I'm sure it's the same with a composite soundpost. My introduction to them (not the Hamberger but a similar design) was being given a tutorial by someone who had fitted hundreds at least. He was acutely aware of the precise nuances of what he was doing. Just because an idiot can make a mess of it doesn't mean no-one should use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASEWICZ Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 20 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said: I am pretty sure I would based on what I know post pressure does, but by coincidence I get to find out tomorrow. Yup....that is the point Michael, "pretty sure" doesn't fill me with confidence! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASEWICZ Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 19 minutes ago, martin swan said: Jerry I don't know how many conventional soundposts you fitted before you felt you were thoroughly in tune with the process, probably a few thousand, but I'm sure it's the same with a composite soundpost. My introduction to them (not the Hamberger but a similar design) was being given a tutorial by someone who had fitted hundreds at least. He was acutely aware of the precise nuances of what he was doing. Just because an idiot can make a mess of it doesn't mean no-one should use them. Agreed Martin, but why make products that any idiot can make a mess of, especially when they do not do the same job as the original? Selling these as an antidote to responsibly taking care of your instrument and bow invites problems....especially as that claim is inaccurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Darnton Posted August 11, 2019 Report Share Posted August 11, 2019 28 minutes ago, Jerry Pasewicz said: Yup....that is the point Michael, "pretty sure" doesn't fill me with confidence! After tomorrow, I won't be speculating. It appears from your posts, however, that you have achieved certainty on the basis of no experience at all, so I believe I am entitled to speculate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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