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Christian Bayon's Bass Bar In the Feb. 18 Strad

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12 hours ago, jezzupe said:

Christian congratulations on your many fine instruments, they sound very good! Also kudos for getting in the Strad! I commend you for having the courage to do something different, which in this realm is an achievement within itself.

Same here.

Congratulations and thank you for sharing your remarkable work.

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Christian, This is really good work, Bravo !!

I have a couple of questions;

What was your concept of the placement and size of the “bridges”

Do the dimensions and placement of the “bridges” affect the tone

Have you noticed a change in cello wolf notes

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Thanks, I´m still working on the experimentations for the lengh of the "bridges", for exemple, my latest violin (I´ll set the strings tomorrow) have only 4 centimeter lenght contact (3,5 mm wide) on the place between the FF´s and bridges are 90mm and 70mm.

Surprisingly, the biggest change was between V shape bar and normal bar, not between V shape and V shape with bridges.

Unfortunatly, my bass bar does not help the wolf notes (normal since the wolf point is more free!)

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Well, I constructed your bass bar with a 6cm length between the FF holes and it worked great, The new bar added 10Hz to Mode 5 and appeared to improve the Mode 2 and Mode 5 definition. I hope you pass along the results of your experiment to us. 

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Picking up on this thread because I am about to check out the Bayon bar. 

There are a few questions 

After the bar is glued is there any possibility for adjustment?

would it be advisable to make the upper width narrower if the bass bar material is heavy?

what is the approximate weight of the Bayon bar? Approximately the same weight or more?

Is the taper for high archings different ?

 

 

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On 1/31/2018 at 12:33 AM, David Burgess said:

How do they sound and play?

Here you can have a glimpse about the speed of the answer of this cello ( one of the first I made with this bass bar 5 years ago)

 

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5 hours ago, christian bayon said:

Here you can have a glimpse about the speed of the answer of this cello ( one of the first I made with this bass bar 5 years ago)

 

Jealous about the downbow spiccatto. Even my impossibly arrogant teacher said one either could or couldn’t do it, it couldn’t be taught. I’m not sure that’s true but it sure has been in my own experience.

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@Don Noon

Many years ago, I acquired a Virzi violin in perfect condition, with the original patented tone enhancer still inside. The violin sounded great, so we decided to leave it in place.

The general sense was that it was just a useless gimmick, which probably true because others would rush to copy if it were not. 

Did it help the sound? Did you ever experiment with it to determine exactly what it did(as opposed to what it was supposed to do)?

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Oh that makes me want to practise this Capriccio! Great sounding Cello, ofcourse it is also the Cellist, but indeed, the low strings seem to speak exceptionally well. @christian bayon so you believe this is due to the bass bar shape too? Very intersting!

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I've done this before, but mine has 4 cutouts, thank gosh, now I don't owe you royalties :D

Sounds really nice btw. really like the cello

fwiw, my take on the idea is that as long as you have solid contact {wood to wood} in the bridge island area, that the cut outs allow for a wee extra plate movement /breathing 

and many of my guitars use this idea in the bracing

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4 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

@Don Noon

Virzi... 

Did it help the sound? Did you ever experiment with it to determine exactly what it did(as opposed to what it was supposed to do)?

I have not tried anything like that, but from looking at it, my guess is:

-It adds mass to the bass bar, which may or may not help, depending on how the rest of the instrument is constructed and where the mass is added.

-The "tone producer" is probably more of a "tone reducer", as it will have some vibration modes of its own which will subtract from the energy going into the rest of the body.  Depending on how the modes are aligned between the Virizi thing and the rest of the instrument, it might help if the reduced modes happen to align with excessive response peaks.

My feeling is that an instrument can be made with the right masses and without excessive peaks, and therefore not need whatever tweaks the "tone producer" provides.  It also seems like a tedious, iterative, and finicky task to get the gizmo tuned so that it actually helps a deficient instrument, if it can indeed ever help in actual practice as opposed to theory.

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As a former restorer, I like to maximize the glue surface area of the bass bar, not only to avoid "print-through" upon initial gluing, but also as the years go by.

If I wanted to weaken the stiffness of the bar in certain areas, I'd probably rather accomplish this by removing material from the top of the bar, than from the gluing surface.

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2 hours ago, Don Noon said:

I have not tried anything like that, but from looking at it, my guess is:

-It adds mass to the bass bar, which may or may not help, depending on how the rest of the instrument is constructed and where the mass is added.

-The "tone producer" is probably more of a "tone reducer", as it will have some vibration modes of its own which will subtract from the energy going into the rest of the body.  Depending on how the modes are aligned between the Virizi thing and the rest of the instrument, it might help if the reduced modes happen to align with excessive response peaks.

My feeling is that an instrument can be made with the right masses and without excessive peaks, and therefore not need whatever tweaks the "tone producer" provides.  It also seems like a tedious, iterative, and finicky task to get the gizmo tuned so that it actually helps a deficient instrument, if it can indeed ever help in actual practice as opposed to theory.

Thank you very much, I was wondering if the addition would have its own natural frequency which might interfere with other natural frequencies and effectively cancel out a particular series of tones. I guess if the additional piece of wood could be made With the right natural frequency it would help instead of hinder. The violin I had was so nice we didn’t want to take the top off and remove it. I wonder if it’s still there?

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I just don't see how this method can improve the sound of an instrument any better than installing a regular bar and adjusting it's stiffness by shaving it down.

Will the bar behave differently to a normal bar with the same stiffness? Maybe. 

Will it serve it's structural  function of providing resistance to the force of the strings? It's honestly hard to say, but I do not envy the person given the responsibility for their care after the maker dies.

Is it always fun to try different things? You betcha!

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It seems to me that it might be more like a support for the bridge, and at the same time keeping the length from constricting from the string pressure.  And doing it in a way that really frees up the belly.  

What if the ends were let right into the blocks?  It would be pure support for string pressure, and nothing else.  Wouldn't it?  As it is, it is pretty close to that.

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Everyone here sems to Focus on the aspect of leaving gaps in the glueing Surface. If I understand well, @christian bayon isn't that sure About wether that helps all that much, and believes that it is much more the triangular shape (seen from the side) and added extra mass to the bass bar that seems to have a positive effect. Am I interpreting this correctly, Christian? Ave you tried this triangular bar shape without gaps?

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1 hour ago, baroquecello said:

Everyone here sems to Focus on the aspect of leaving gaps in the glueing Surface. If I understand well, @christian bayon isn't that sure About wether that helps all that much, and believes that it is much more the triangular shape (seen from the side) and added extra mass to the bass bar that seems to have a positive effect. Am I interpreting this correctly, Christian? Ave you tried this triangular bar shape without gaps?

You are absolutely right, the triangular shape is way more important than the gaps. Yes I have tried, the cello you can hear in the Piatti doesn’t have gaps.

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Christian, I believe that a bass bar with the cutouts would be easier to fit and glue than a traditional one. When I get around to my next violin making effort it is something I have in mind doing.

I can't see what is wrong with a triangular shape, it seems to me to be a more logical design approach. But the one you have shown is very wide end to end. Have you considered tapering the bar, wider and higher at the lower end and narrower and lower at the upper. This would provide more mass at the lower end and less at the upper end?

 

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The main purpose of the bass bar is to add stiffness to the top plate without adding a lot of weight.  This is a more efficient way than just making the plates thicker.

For a given weight Christian Bayon's  inverted triangular shape, with its wide top and narrow glue line V, is stiffer than if the wide part is at the bottom glue surface ^ like most bass bars--after it is glued to the top plate.

You can go to further extremes by using a T shape bar which is even stiffer for a given weight.  While you're at it you could glue on a strip of unidirectional carbon fiber tape on top of the T surface.

On the other hand if you just wanted to add more weight you could simply stick on a few magnets or glue some lead weights onto the top plate.  I don't recommend this because a viola will flip upside down in rough water. 

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