Madmox Posted January 26, 2018 Report Posted January 26, 2018 So i picked up this violin at a thrift store because i am a sucker for an old violin and even moreso when they are damaged or in pieces to get inexpensive repair practice. This one has some conundrums that have me a little perplexed. The only reference i've found to this label was one Christies Auction where a violin with the same label sold, and a reference on a Russian art forum to the luthier Lev Dobriansky. What makes this a little strange is the back looks like David Hopf is carved into it, its pretty rudimentary for a stamp. The inside of the top plate has had the bajeesus cleated out of it and the bass bar is glued in, not carved in which isn't what i would have expected for a normal german Hopf copy. Its fully lined and blocked with a one piece back. There is no neck splice either for what its worth. Anyway i'd love your opinions of this somewhat bizarre mix matched violin. And because its also kind of fun to ponder a violins history my guess is that was a violin that was in someones family, that someone decided to have repaired and set up in order learn how to play. The case had a new bow that doesn't jump out at me as being particularly expensive, though it is fully lined also but the carving isn't anything special or fine.
Addie Posted January 26, 2018 Report Posted January 26, 2018 The usual through-neck that was regraduated and blocked in 1904 by Viola d'Amore's great grandfather.
Don Noon Posted January 26, 2018 Report Posted January 26, 2018 Brilliant cleat job, with the grain of the cleat parallel to the crack, leading to cracked cleats.
Rue Posted January 26, 2018 Report Posted January 26, 2018 For some reason...I think this one is cool. Congrats - and keep us posted. Sound clip requested!
Madmox Posted January 26, 2018 Author Report Posted January 26, 2018 39 minutes ago, Rue said: For some reason...I think this one is cool. Congrats - and keep us posted. Sound clip requested! I don’t play yet, but when I get it to the front of the queue and back together I’ll find someone or be able to muddle my way through something. Speaking of which I really do need to get signed up for lessons.
Blank face Posted January 26, 2018 Report Posted January 26, 2018 There's nothing mysterious about this violin. Looks like a mid 19th century Hopf model Klingenthal with a usual brand, maybe made by a maker named Hopf, maybe not. I see a very usual through neck and the also usual small log pseudo corner blocks at a built on the back construction. The label seems to refer to a regraduation, which includes the replacement of the original bass bar. The only mystery remains what was the idea behind setting the cleats this way.
Jim Bress Posted January 26, 2018 Report Posted January 26, 2018 Clearly the cleats in this orientation did not prevent the cracks from reopening. If the cleats were properly oriented and did prevent the cracks from reopening, would the stress to the top plate causing the cracks just shift to the next weakest spot? It has me wondering if the underlying cause of the cracks is what needs to be addressed. Is the top plate too strongly glued on so instead of a seam opening to relieve stress the plate cracks? Thanks, Jim
Madmox Posted January 26, 2018 Author Report Posted January 26, 2018 Look at that. I am already learning things. I should have joined this forum long ago. Interesting the path it took though life and that someone thought enough of it to have it pulled apart and have it blocked, regraduated and a new bass bar installed. By a Russian luthier no less. This russian art forum has his history or at least what I have been able to find. It would appear he was invited to Germany to make repairs to Prince Ludwigs violins and was appointed chief curator or Czar Nicholas II’s collection of violins.
Madmox Posted January 26, 2018 Author Report Posted January 26, 2018 21 minutes ago, Jim Bress said: Clearly the cleats in this orientation did not prevent the cracks from reopening. If the cleats were properly oriented and did prevent the cracks from reopening, would the stress to the top plate causing the cracks just shift to the next weakest spot? It has me wondering if the underlying cause of the cracks is what needs to be addressed. Is the top plate too strongly glued on so instead of a seam opening to relieve stress the plate cracks? Thanks, Jim That’s an interesting observation Jim. I’ll go through and correct the wonky cleats and pull the top plate also and reglue both top and bottom to hopefully relieve and stress they glued into the construction and solve that little problem
FiddleDoug Posted January 26, 2018 Report Posted January 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Blank face said: There's nothing mysterious about this violin. Looks like a mid 19th century Hopf model Klingenthal with a usual brand, maybe made by a maker named Hopf, maybe not. I see a very usual through neck and the also usual small log pseudo corner blocks at a built on the back construction. The label seems to refer to a regraduation, which includes the replacement of the original bass bar. The only mystery remains what was the idea behind setting the cleats this way. Ditto. I'd say that the "David" was added later. Looks like the luthier who put the cleats in was pretty incompetent.
caerolle Posted January 26, 2018 Report Posted January 26, 2018 2 hours ago, Don Noon said: Brilliant cleat job, with the grain of the cleat parallel to the crack, leading to cracked cleats. Well, then you cleat the cleats! And, then, there is always duct tape!
GeorgeH Posted January 26, 2018 Report Posted January 26, 2018 Welcome to MN, Madmox! I like the tailpiece - much more ornate than the usual flowery inlay.
caerolle Posted January 26, 2018 Report Posted January 26, 2018 I love the look of the back. That top is just sad, though. And I don't much like the shape of the f-holes. Finally, is it just the angle, or is the bottom block not centered?
Madmox Posted January 26, 2018 Author Report Posted January 26, 2018 16 minutes ago, GeorgeH said: Welcome to MN, Madmox! I like the tailpiece - much more ornate than the usual flowery inlay. Thanks. I’ve been a lurker here for a few years now and finally just got my act together enough to register. I am really glad to be here.
Blank face Posted January 26, 2018 Report Posted January 26, 2018 A second mystery to me is, why the undamaged bottom was taken off, while the cracked belly was left in place.
Bill Yacey Posted January 26, 2018 Report Posted January 26, 2018 4 hours ago, Madmox said: Look at that. I am already learning things. I should have joined this forum long ago. Interesting the path it took though life and that someone thought enough of it to have it pulled apart and have it blocked, regraduated and a new bass bar installed. By a Russian luthier no less. This russian art forum has his history or at least what I have been able to find. It would appear he was invited to Germany to make repairs to Prince Ludwigs violins and was appointed chief curator or Czar Nicholas II’s collection of violins. Odessa is in southern Ukraine, but the label has Warsaw handwritten in Polish after it.
LongNeck Posted January 26, 2018 Report Posted January 26, 2018 5 hours ago, Jim Bress said: Clearly the cleats in this orientation did not prevent the cracks from reopening. If the cleats were properly oriented and did prevent the cracks from reopening, would the stress to the top plate causing the cracks just shift to the next weakest spot? It has me wondering if the underlying cause of the cracks is what needs to be addressed. Is the top plate too strongly glued on so instead of a seam opening to relieve stress the plate cracks? Could top-cracking stresses come from some failure of the through-neck design or implementation?
Wee B. Bridges Posted January 26, 2018 Report Posted January 26, 2018 7 hours ago, Blank face said: The only mystery remains what was the idea behind setting the cleats this way. Job security. See it's working
Violadamore Posted January 26, 2018 Report Posted January 26, 2018 8 hours ago, Addie said: The usual through-neck that was regraduated and blocked in 1904 by Viola d'Amore's great grandfather. There was an entire process involved. Nowadays I no longer use lightning striking the lab for revivifying the violin (fewer cracks), and replaced the original secret mixture with something less dependent on beet juice and vodka.
FiddleDoug Posted January 27, 2018 Report Posted January 27, 2018 Did you take the back off? The front is usually taken off for repairs, and it's usually not a good idea to take the back off, except as pretty much a last resort. In any case, the front will need to come off to repair the cracks properly.
Marty Kasprzyk Posted January 27, 2018 Report Posted January 27, 2018 On 1/26/2018 at 5:04 PM, LongNeck said: Could top-cracking stresses come from some failure of the through-neck design or implementation? If something always breaks the same way it means the design/material selection is no damn good. Any good cabinet maker would never ever glue together different woods with different grain directions like a violin has.
Madmox Posted January 28, 2018 Author Report Posted January 28, 2018 On 1/26/2018 at 5:01 PM, FiddleDoug said: Did you take the back off? The front is usually taken off for repairs, and it's usually not a good idea to take the back off, except as pretty much a last resort. In any case, the front will need to come off to repair the cracks properly. Unfortunately the back was off when I got it. But since it is, I’ll clean up the old glue and get it put back on. C’est La Vie
franciscus Posted January 28, 2018 Report Posted January 28, 2018 On 1/26/2018 at 5:45 PM, Madmox said: Interesting the path it took though life and that someone thought enough of it to have it pulled apart and have it blocked, regraduated and a new bass bar installed. By a Russian luthier no less. This russian art forum has his history or at least what I have been able to find. It would appear he was invited to Germany to make repairs to Prince Ludwigs violins and was appointed chief curator or Czar Nicholas II’s collection of violins. I'd say that Mr. Dobriansky has nothing with this violin, because the label says: "Tone and timbre perfected according to the procedure discovered by L. Dobriansky" etc.
Addie Posted January 28, 2018 Report Posted January 28, 2018 On January 26, 2018 at 5:46 PM, Violadamore said: There was an entire process involved. Nowadays I no longer use lightning striking the lab for revivifying the violin (fewer cracks), and replaced the original secret mixture with something less dependent on beet juice and vodka. Well, your location is good for thunder storms, but the price of copper for anodes that go through the roof has gone through the roof... But anyway, how are the experiments with the Mountain Dew going?
caerolle Posted January 28, 2018 Report Posted January 28, 2018 13 minutes ago, Addie said: Well, your location is good for thunder storms, but the price of copper for anodes that go through the roof has gone through the roof... But anyway, how are the experiments with the Mountain Dew going? If you haven't you guys need to read Mrs. McWilliams and the Lightning by Mark Twain. Hilarious.
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