GeorgeH

How to Repair Button Separation From Neck?

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8 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

Hi Martin,

The top block looks fine. As David Burgess pointed out, one will not see a separation at the bottom of the block because it has been pushed down. I do see slight separations of the bottom rib seam on either side of the block.

I do think that all the evidence points to a top block that has come loose, and then maybe re-adhered somewhat. Anyway, I am not trying to force it to move. I do not know the history of this violin at all. Maybe it sat in a humid attic for a few decades? Who knows.

I don't see any distortion in the back, and it looks everything looks lined-up to fall back into place fairly easily.  

I have no idea what the brand on the block is, though. Do you?

 

block_2.jpg

The more I look at this photo, the more I'm afraid that there is in fact a deformation. There are two gaps next to the block, a smaller left and a bigger at the right side: it would be hard to explain the rigid gaps without these deformations.

They might not cause a big distortion to the outside, but can stand in the way of a proper resetting the block and ribs.

BTW, all my former posts were replies to other opinions, watering, removing the belly for neck resetting etc. and should be seen in this context.

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8 minutes ago, martin swan said:

We will all be very happy for GeorgeH if his violin doesn't need a neck reset.

I can't understand the confrontational or competitive tone - I would hope we're all trying to help, and I find Blank face's comments valid. 

Personally, given what was in the first post, and given what we can see of the quality of the fiddle, I would assume that I would end up taking everything apart. I don't like the idea of a 7mm overstand.

Old Eskimo saying....unless your the lead dog...the view never changes....Lol... seriously though isn’t some competition good? As long as we can leave the personal at the door and focus on method? I fully agree being prepared for the worse is a good straight, but for instance the 7mm overstand “issue” could also be a very “non issue”  and would need a secure top block to spring off in the first place. 

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20 minutes ago, martin swan said:

 I don't like the idea of a 7mm overstand.

This high overstand is a fine leverage to pull the block from the button end of the bottom and probably part of the problem.

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4 minutes ago, James M. Jones said:

Old Eskimo saying....unless your the lead dog...the view never changes....Lol... seriously though isn’t some competition good? As long as we can leave the personal at the door and focus on method? 

Of course - I just wondered if Jerry had maybe had one too many expressos for breakfast :lol:

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38 minutes ago, martin swan said:

I don't like the idea of a 7mm overstand.

Uh oh. I am making two violins right now which will end up around 7mm. ;)

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30 minutes ago, Blank face said:

There are two gaps next to the block, a smaller left and a bigger at the right side: it would be hard to explain the rigid gaps without these deformations.

I think that if you are referring to the dark areas on either side of the block, you're seeing some glue. When I shine a light on either side of the block while looking through the endpin hole, the rib separation is about equal on both sides (very thin slivers of light on either side). 

Something else I noticed in looking at this again, is that about 1mm deep of the edge is missing for a few inches on the treble side (see picture). This was "repaired" at some point, which may be why the glue is there. It should probably be half-edged to be repaired properly.

@James M. Jones, I am pretty much always prepared for the worst when I get a violin like this. ;)

edge_damage.jpg

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18 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

I think that if you are referring to the dark areas on either side of the block, you're seeing some glue. When I shine a light on either side of the block while looking through the endpin hole, the rib separation is about equal on both sides (very thin slivers of light on either side). 

Something else I noticed in looking at this again, is that about 1mm deep of the edge is missing for a few inches on the treble side (see picture). This was "repaired" at some point, which may be why the glue is there. It should probably be half-edged to be repaired properly.

@James M. Jones, I am pretty much always prepared for the worst when I get a violin like this. ;)

edge_damage.jpg

Equal silver linings are a good sign.;) Maybe this big glue residents are causing the rigidness alone, possibly someone tried to reglue it and failed, as I supposed in my first post.

The edge damage looks old and could be there from the beginning, caused by clamping the ribs, carving the graduation or similar. As long as its closed, I won't worry.

23 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Uh oh. I am making two violins right now which will end up around 7mm. ;)

I'm supposing that Burgess violins are constructed strong enough to compensate this extra-lever.:rolleyes:

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35 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Uh oh. I am making two violins right now which will end up around 7mm. ;)

You clearly have excess testosterone!

Seriously, quite surprised and inerested to hear this. What sort of bridge height will these violins end up with?

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The violin world seems to have different economic  rules to the general rule of economics.

 

I took a violin to my local luthier and asked if it was worth repairing.

He looked it over and said yes,it will be worth about a £1000 when it its finished.

Ok, I said, so how much will the repairs cost ?

Lets see.

He looked it all over for quite a time, looked inside, and said £700.

Is that a quote I ask ?

No, of course not, its an estimate, we will have to see what else might need doing when its opened up.

So it might come to a £1000 then ?

Yes, but it will be better than a Chinese one.

So its actual  real world  value is a big fat zero !  :huh:

 

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Probably the problem lies with the general rules of economics rather than with the world of violins.

The violin has a value which is independent of its tradeable value - it can be a thing worth having even if you can't sell it.

Imagine you broke an arm and you lived in a country without an NHS.

"Can you mend my broken arm?"

"Yes, the operation will cost £15,000"

"And afterwards, will my arm be worth £15,000 more than before I broke it?"

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2 hours ago, Blank face said:

 

I'm supposing that Burgess violins are constructed strong enough to compensate this extra-lever.:rolleyes:

How much extra leverage would you expect from a 7mm outset compared to a 6mm outset? If we consider the base of the block and heel to  be the pivot point, we have multiplied the lever length by about 1.025. Very little, in other words.

2 hours ago, martin swan said:

Seriously, quite surprised and inerested to hear this. What sort of bridge height will these violins end up with?

I'll probably string them up around 28.5, measured from the top at the bridge position to a straightedge placed on top of the fingerboard.

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To my eye this looks like a very simple, very common, glue failure. Usually you can run in some glue, put on a clamp and charge a very reasonable amount, and everyone's happy.

One thing though. Earlier on I think the impression might have been given that one can reactivate old glue in a joint by adding hot water. In my view this doesn't work at all.

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32 minutes ago, Conor Russell said:

To my eye this looks like a very simple, very common, glue failure. Usually you can run in some glue, put on a clamp and charge a very reasonable amount, and everyone's happy.

This would be the usual assumption, but it was taken into question by describing it as very rigid, impossible to move it in any way. This was the point from where the reasoning starts. Yes, running hot.:huh:

40 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

How much extra leverage would you expect from a 7mm outset compared to a 6mm outset? If we consider the base of the block and heel to  be the pivot point, we have multiplied the lever length by about 1.025. Very little, in other words.

To be clear, we were discussing the overstand of the OP violin;  from the given photo it appears very high. I don't know where George took the measure, edge of the belly or end of the neck, but an average overstand of an 100 years old saxon violin would be rather 4,5 at the belly and 5-6 at the neck's end. Taking into account a weak glueing and a slim block, the additional leverage could be the last force needed to pull it up.

My point was that your violins (like most of contemporary) are probably constructed to stand a higher tension than it was usual in older times within trade stuff, not to calculate a particular leverage multiplying.

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16 minutes ago, Blank face said:

I don't know where George took the measure, edge of the belly or end of the neck, but an average overstand of an 100 years old saxon violin would be rather 4,5 at the belly and 5-6 at the neck's end.

Yes, but old Saxon specs aren't really what we're using these days.

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2 hours ago, Blank face said:

I don't know where George took the measure, edge of the belly or end of the neck, but an average overstand of an 100 years old saxon violin would be rather 4,5 at the belly and 5-6 at the neck's end.

I took the measure at the end of the neck.

Update:

I just returned from dropping off this violin at the luthier. What he guessed had happened was that at some point the back had come unglued all the way to the top corners. When it was repaired, the bottom block was likely not glued in well, which caused it to let go.

He also said that the bridge appeared to have been fitted to the violin in its current condition. (Yikes!) He could not move the neck, either.

In order to repair the violin, he is going to release the back from the ribs to slightly past the top corners, and then glue and clamp it all back together properly. He thinks that the fingerboard should have the right projection once that is done. 

He did not feel it was worthwhile to fix the edge with a half-edge where it had splintered because there was not going to be a problem with re-gluing the ribs there.

Other than the button/back issues, no other major repairs. 

I’ll post pictures when I get it back. Thank you all for a very interesting discussion! I really appreciate it, and I learned a lot.

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7 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Uh oh. I am making two violins right now which will end up around 7mm.

David, I am interested to know your reasons for choosing a high overstand.

Edit:  On second thought, I don't want to hijack this thread.  I'll start a new thread.

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It's interesting this over stand issue has been brought forward. I was taught  33 years ago by my mentor to set it up for 7mm, and so I have always done since. Now I find it curious that some feel this is excessively high?

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The photo is blurry,  but could I be seeing a washer and the head of a small lag screw through the neck block?  Perhaps the top will need to come off.....  In any case,  if a new block is put in,  or if the old one needs regluing,  that would be easiest with the top off  (at least for me).

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I always feel a lag bolt and washer is best installed from the exterior, readily allowing user adjustment.:lol:

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7 mm is perfect measurement for arch height 15 mm.

Many makers use lower overstand, which will make the string angle at the bridge smaller than 158° , which is not god for the top, too much force.

 

KYC

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chungviolins, can you explain how lowering the overstand can increase the downbearing at the bridge?

If the saddle and the nut stay in the same place then surely lowering the overstand must increase the angle at the bridge, causing less downward force.

Maybe you mean something different?

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6 hours ago, Bill Yacey said:

I always feel a lag bolt and washer is best installed from the exterior, readily allowing user adjustment.:lol:

Actually, some Italian instruments were built that way,  with necks attatched with nuts and bolts.........................................................

 

 

Admittedly, in this case it was my early 1970s Italian made - "Echo Ranger" accoustic steel string guitar.

If the neck angle changed you could undo the four bolts remove the neck, shim it, and hey presto, low action again.

They were built like tanks, and many survive today in good condition. :lol:

 

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19 hours ago, martin swan said:

Probably the problem lies with the general rules of economics rather than with the world of violins.

The violin has a value which is independent of its tradeable value - it can be a thing worth having even if you can't sell it.

Imagine you broke an arm and you lived in a country without an NHS.

"Can you mend my broken arm?"

"Yes, the operation will cost £15,000"

"And afterwards, will my arm be worth £15,000 more than before I broke it?"

 LOL !

You are a good salesman Martin !  :lol:

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2 hours ago, martin swan said:

 

chungviolins, can you explain how lowering the overstand can increase the downbearing at the bridge?

If the saddle and the nut stay in the same place then surely lowering the overstand must increase the angle at the bridge, causing less downward force.

Maybe you mean something different?

You cannot lower overstand and nut stay in the same place : this will make fb height and bridge too low

Lower overstand means smaller string angle, bc you cannot adjust br height too much, we have to use a good standard height br. (32-34 typically unless you want it really low like 30 mm)

(" nut  stays in the same place..." does not make sense, when you lower overstand you cannot make projection too low bc this will result too low bridge.)

3 things determine the string angle : overstand, fb projection ( or br height) and saddle. When you set the neck, we have total freedom for the first two, but you cannot make saddle too hogh or too low  for the obvious reasons.)

It is simple geometry. If you draw the diagram, you will understand.

I'll attach a sketch later.

 

KYC

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