Atypical construction violin

[Jakub]

Hello, I have old violin with atypical construction. Inside is handwrite in german language, I can read only "Patent", "Dr. F. Thomastik", "Jakob Buchner", "Wien".
Can someone say about this violin? About Jakob Buchner? Or about relation with Dr. F. Thomastik (father of Thomastik-Infeld)? Can someone read whole text? Thank you

[Wood Butcher]

Wow, that is bizarre! What does it sound like?

The neck adjustment must make the fingerboard almost parallel with the gluing surface of the ribs, and with the super high bottom nut, there must be very little downward pressure on the bridge. Do you think that is why the bridge is mounted on a stick(s)?

Thinking about it, that must be the sound post screwed onto the foot of the bridge? Is it fastened to the bass bar in the same way?

[GeorgeH]

37 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

Thinking about it, that must be the sound post screwed onto the foot of the bridge? Is it fastened to the bass bar in the same way?

It appears to have something other than a sound post. It looks like the treble bridge foot is sitting on a block where the sound post would be. I guess that the idea is that the vibrations are transferred to the top via the "sound block" because it does not appear that the foot of the bridge is in contact with the top at all (I am assuming that the block is in contact with the top).

[Edelsailor]

Hello,

If you do not mind, I would like to foward this thread to another here on MN.

This violin has everything to do with that threads topic.

Fascinating coincidence. 

[Don Noon]

While this thru-the-top post is unusual, it is not unheard of.  It generally tends to make a violin more like a viola, enhancing the low and mid frequencies while reducing brightness.  There was a thread about it here.

[vathek]

I seem to recall an earlier post with that type of bridge discussed, but wouldn't know where to find it.

 

[GeorgeH]

1 hour ago, Don Noon said:

While this thru-the-top post is unusual, it is not unheard of.  It generally tends to make a violin more like a viola, enhancing the low and mid frequencies while reducing brightness. 

This has more than just the thru bridge. The crazy neck and saddle make it look like some kind of prototype. Also, it does not appear to be a sound "post," and I can't tell if the base bridge foot is sitting on the top or not.

[Addie]

Don is quite right.  This is a violin that was used for experiments, not unlike some of Don's.  

[Jakub]

Sound is like a viola ;-) on top is hole, right foot of bridge is sound post. And what we can see inside on back, that is something as bass bar (I can not say exactly, my english is bad) and sound post stands on this bar.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Jakub

[jacobsaunders]

Dr. Franz Thomastik, an „Anthroposoph“, Born 1883 in Vienna, made all sorts of inventions, and wierd acustic publications. The Infeld Family took over his firm in the 50’s. The only inventions that had a longer life, are the steel strings, and the tailpiece with integeral fine tuners. The firm, in the 5th. District of Vienna, to this day, has no end of such junk in the basement, and asked me (with an unsurprising negative response) to repair it, some 25 years ago.

 

I am not Aware of Jakob Buchner, there is a large dinasty of „Bucher“ violin makers, although it should be noted that there were no end of makers in Vienna at this time, and one is surprised oftten enough. I wrote an Essay about these here: https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/329024-who-made-this-violin/&do=findComment&comment=596648

[Jakub]

And please, what about instrument? Age? Quality of work? Value? Because this violin is available for sale, but I have not informations about instrument. Thank you

[uguntde]

On 18/11/2017 at 7:03 PM, jacobsaunders said:

Dr. Franz Thomastik, an „Anthroposoph“, Born 1883 in Vienna, made all sorts of inventions, and wierd acustic publications. The Infeld Family took over his firm in the 50’s. The only inventions that had a longer life, are the steel strings, and the tailpiece with integeral fine tuners. The firm, in the 5th. District of Vienna, to this day, has no end of such junk in the basement, and asked me (with an unsurprising negative response) to repair it, some 25 years ago.

 

I am not Aware of Jakob Buchner, there is a large dinasty of „Bucher“ violin makers, although it should be noted that there were no end of makers in Vienna at this time, and one is surprised oftten enough. I wrote an Essay about these here: https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/329024-who-made-this-violin/&do=findComment&comment=596648

I think they were called Weidler violins. Later Arthur Bay made such instruments in his workshop near Konstanz.

[jacobsaunders]

19 hours ago, Jakub said:

And please, what about instrument? Age? Quality of work? Value? Because this violin is available for sale, but I have not informations about instrument. Thank you

1. Junk

2. ca pre WW1

3. Normal bought parts from the Markneukichen industry

4. not worth anything

[GeorgeH]

55 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

4. not worth anything

Well, it might be worth something to a collector of weird violins. It may be rubbish, but it isn't your usual rubbish. 

[Marty Kasprzyk]

I use the hole through the top method (from the medieval Welsh Crwth) too for my violas.   The treble bridge foot rests directly on a rather massive sound post.  This does three things: it reduces the strings' downward load on the top plate.  It also allows a larger area of the top
 plate to vibrate in phase with the treble bridge foot vibration.  This decreases sound wave cancellation which increases net output sound radiations.  Furthermore the large in phase plate area naturally decreases various resonance frequencies which makes the violas sound deeper.

I also use a very shallow string angle to reduce the strings' downward load on the top.  The strings are attached to an extension of the fingerboard rather than using a tail piece and a real high saddle.  This in turn eliminates the body bending and top plate compression loads from the string tension.

All of these stress reductions allows the use of a thin and almost flat top plate which decreases its stiffness.  This further reduces the frequency of many of its vibration modes while increasing their amplitudes which deepens the viola's sound even though they are quite small.

My goal is to make small easy to hold lightweight violas that sound like big ones for those who may have had playing induced injuries.  i get encouraging input from players but dealers think they're atypical junk.

[Michael Jennings]

Marty,

Atypical??..... YES!

"Junk??...... I am not at all convinced!

Love to hear a sound clip..... and Kudos for imagination and exploration!

[FoxMitchell]

11 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

I use the hole through the top method (from the medieval Welsh Crwth) too for my violas.   The treble bridge foot rests directly on a rather massive sound post.  This does three things: it reduces the strings' downward load on the top plate.  It also allows a larger area of the top
 plate to vibrate in phase with the treble bridge foot vibration.  This decreases sound wave cancellation which increases net output sound radiations.  Furthermore the large in phase plate area naturally decreases various resonance frequencies which makes the violas sound deeper.

I also use a very shallow string angle to reduce the strings' downward load on the top.  The strings are attached to an extension of the fingerboard rather than using a tail piece and a real high saddle.  This in turn eliminates the body bending and top plate compression loads from the string tension.

All of these stress reductions allows the use of a thin and almost flat top plate which decreases its stiffness.  This further reduces the frequency of many of its vibration modes while increasing their amplitudes which deepens the viola's sound even though they are quite small.

My goal is to make small easy to hold lightweight violas that sound like big ones for those who may have had playing induced injuries.  i get encouraging input from players but dealers think they're atypical junk.

 

I would love to hear what this sounds like!

[Juan Tavira]

Me too!

Juan

[MikeV]

That violin is pretty neat.  A nice piece of history.

[David Burgess]

On 11/19/2017 at 3:56 PM, Marty Kasprzyk said:

I use the hole through the top method (from the medieval Welsh Crwth) too for my violas.   The treble bridge foot rests directly on a rather massive sound post.  This does three things: it reduces the strings' downward load on the top plate.  It also allows a larger area of the top
 plate to vibrate in phase with the treble bridge foot vibration.  This decreases sound wave cancellation which increases net output sound radiations.  Furthermore the large in phase plate area naturally decreases various resonance frequencies which makes the violas sound deeper.

I also use a very shallow string angle to reduce the strings' downward load on the top.  The strings are attached to an extension of the fingerboard rather than using a tail piece and a real high saddle.  This in turn eliminates the body bending and top plate compression loads from the string tension.

All of these stress reductions allows the use of a thin and almost flat top plate which decreases its stiffness.  This further reduces the frequency of many of its vibration modes while increasing their amplitudes which deepens the viola's sound even though they are quite small.

My goal is to make small easy to hold lightweight violas that sound like big ones for those who may have had playing induced injuries.  i get encouraging input from players but dealers think they're atypical junk.

Marty, you definitely are a thinker, and very good at it.

[jezzupe]

Hole in the heart. I love Marty's stuff, the tailpiece-less fingerboard is super cool and interesting idea I think. 

[Violadamore]

On 11/19/2017 at 3:56 PM, Marty Kasprzyk said:

I use the hole through the top method (from the medieval Welsh Crwth) too for my violas.   The treble bridge foot rests directly on a rather massive sound post.  This does three things: it reduces the strings' downward load on the top plate.  It also allows a larger area of the top
 plate to vibrate in phase with the treble bridge foot vibration.  This decreases sound wave cancellation which increases net output sound radiations.  Furthermore the large in phase plate area naturally decreases various resonance frequencies which makes the violas sound deeper.

I also use a very shallow string angle to reduce the strings' downward load on the top.  The strings are attached to an extension of the fingerboard rather than using a tail piece and a real high saddle.  This in turn eliminates the body bending and top plate compression loads from the string tension.

All of these stress reductions allows the use of a thin and almost flat top plate which decreases its stiffness.  This further reduces the frequency of many of its vibration modes while increasing their amplitudes which deepens the viola's sound even though they are quite small.

My goal is to make small easy to hold lightweight violas that sound like big ones for those who may have had playing induced injuries.  i get encouraging input from players but dealers think they're atypical junk.

 

 

I feel that most of your highly innovative design is truly, spectacularly brilliant,  but the chinrest is definitely screwed. 

Have you considered screwing a dovetail wedge through the top via the existing holes, and then sliding a slotted chinrest onto it, thereby hiding the attachment points?

[Marty Kasprzyk]

You're right, the chin rest is definitely screwed!

Its height height can be quickly changed by sticking stacks of slotted spacers underneath it.

Some spacers are beveled which enables the chin rest to be tipped in various directions as shown in the attached photo.

 

Chin rest and spacers

[Marty Kasprzyk]

opps

[Violadamore]

Cool idea.  I just keep imagining the screw wells accumulating makeup and other crud, and having to be disassembled for cleaning.  Has that been a problem at all?