GeorgeH

A 200 year old Cornerless Cello signed by Chanot

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On 11/30/2017 at 5:45 PM, rossini said:

strong light will help you to examine the worm damage 

@Rossini, thinking about this a little further, are you suggesting enough light to illuminate through the top/back/ribs? Seems like it would work, but tough to get inside the instrument.

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@Dwight - cool strad. I'd heard of cornerless ones, but not really paid attention til now. How did it come by its name - is it just the cornerless association, or did it pass through the Chanot shop at some point?

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I don't know how it got it's name, but it was a sort of small viola  d'more with sloping shoulders and a scroll rather like the one on your 'cello.  The best information is that it was converted to a violin in the chanot shop sometime in the first half of the 19th century.  The guy that made my instrument got to spend some time with the original at Bein and Fushi in Chicago.  It was Josua Bell's first "name" instrument when he was younger.  You can see it on the cover of one of his albums

 

DLB

 

joshua-bell-bruch-concerto.jpg

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On ‎02‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 4:49 PM, Tom Fid said:

Maybe we'll call M. Chanot "Big Frankie" then. :)

My son's report on a first trial was "that is a seriously awesome cello," which is more than I'd hoped for, especially since the setup isn't all that great. The strings are old and the soundpost looks like a bit of a hack job.

We were surprised by the strong bass, given that the body is on the small side.

Point of comparison is another antique, possibly German 1890s, that has a very good professional setup and sounds terrific against anything modern under $10k we've tried. It bears a  George Chanot (Manchester) label that I'm pretty sure is not authentic, which is fairly ironic since I understand that the Chanots advanced the art of uplabeling quite a bit.

I'll see if I can con my son into a recording.

Perhaps you'd like to enlighten us on the supposed "Uplabeling" ?

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11 hours ago, Tom Fid said:

@Dwight - cool strad. I'd heard of cornerless ones, but not really paid attention til now. How did it come by its name - is it just the cornerless association, or did it pass through the Chanot shop at some point?

We have had several discussions on this.  I found it all very confusing at first too...

 

 

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@Kev Chanot I was thinking of the Hodges-Chanot case concerning a fake Bergonzi label. To be fair to Chanot, it sounds like he was convicted more in the court of public opinion than by the facts of the case, which are much more mixed than some accounts I've seen.

Google book of the Hodges-Chanot case

Are you of the same Chanot family? If so, my hat's off to your ancestor!

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13 hours ago, Tom Fid said:

@Kev Chanot I was thinking of the Hodges-Chanot case concerning a fake Bergonzi label. To be fair to Chanot, it sounds like he was convicted more in the court of public opinion than by the facts of the case, which are much more mixed than some accounts I've seen.

Google book of the Hodges-Chanot case

Are you of the same Chanot family? If so, my hat's off to your ancestor!

Hi Tom,

Yes, the man in question was my great  great  grandfather. Incidentally, it would appear that it was an attempt by a self righteous violin business to discredit serious competition.

They failed, and I am glad.

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1 hour ago, Kev Chanot said:

Hi Tom,

Yes, the man in question was my great  great  grandfather. Incidentally, it would appear that it was an attempt by a self righteous violin business to discredit serious competition.

They failed, and I am glad.

Kev luv. Georges was a very talented, hard working, innovative man. I love his dedication to basically put aside snobs, who, never did an honest days hard work in their lives, but also set up a new benchmark for the later guitar construction of gretch, etc. As his instruments are creative, superbly constructed, and intricately constructed. That IS Fact. Hero worshippers of The Cremona institute of stick in the muds, are as prevalent here as they always have been. Dinosaurs with no talent, who had and still lack ethics, morality, respect and humility and the fact is that the vast majority are jealous bigoted, nasty ignorant Heron Allen self opinionated cranks and dangerous too, as they usually have too much money and time on their hands.

Your Great Great Grandfathers work was superb, and also his instruments sounded very very good. Warbling vibratoists, still playing Vivaldi, Mozart and the same old middle ages caberet acts, emotionally detached, or Suzuki Julliard automatons will live on, and critics and collectors of instruments that never get played are on this place.

I would love to hear this instrument's voice.

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On ‎04‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 3:00 PM, morgana said:

Kev luv. Georges was a very talented, hard working, innovative man. I love his dedication to basically put aside snobs, who, never did an honest days hard work in their lives, but also set up a new benchmark for the later guitar construction of gretch, etc. As his instruments are creative, superbly constructed, and intricately constructed. That IS Fact. Hero worshippers of The Cremona institute of stick in the muds, are as prevalent here as they always have been. Dinosaurs with no talent, who had and still lack ethics, morality, respect and humility and the fact is that the vast majority are jealous bigoted, nasty ignorant Heron Allen self opinionated cranks and dangerous too, as they usually have too much money and time on their hands.

Your Great Great Grandfathers work was superb, and also his instruments sounded very very good. Warbling vibratoists, still playing Vivaldi, Mozart and the same old middle ages caberet acts, emotionally detached, or Suzuki Julliard automatons will live on, and critics and collectors of instruments that never get played are on this place.

I would love to hear this instrument's voice.

Morgana, Very interesting reply, but with respect I believe you have muddled up the Georges.

The George I was referring to was the son of the GEORGES I think you are referring to....(Him being my great great  great  grandfather !!!)

Now I'm confused !

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On 04/12/2017 at 3:00 PM, morgana said:

 As his instruments are creative, superbly constructed, and intricately constructed. That IS Fact.

Too well constructed unfortunately.

Have a look over on the "pegbox" forum where I have posted "beyond economic repair". My chanot type  violins bass bar is broken,and unlike a normal cremona style violin,very much  harder to repair.

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Tsk...you will have to draw a family tree for us (complete with middle names!) :D

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1 hour ago, Rue said:

Tsk...you will have to draw a family tree for us (complete with middle names!) :D

Oh, goody!  Kev can do the Jacob thing with his own heritage, and we can bask in the pleasant illumination.:) 

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21 hours ago, Tom Fid said:

So that makes Joseph your great great great great grandfather and Francois your great great great grand uncle, right?

Now I'm confused, too.

You're right re Joseph. Not really sure about Francois(The designer of the cello illustrated in this thread).

I did compile a fairly detailed family tree some years ago with some assistance from a Chanot cousin in Paris, although this was pre-computer days......

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22 minutes ago, Kev Chanot said:

You're right re Joseph. Not really sure about Francois(The designer of the cello illustrated in this thread).

I did compile a fairly detailed family tree some years ago with some assistance from a Chanot cousin in Paris, although this was pre-computer days......

Do you have an abridged copy handy?  

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21 hours ago, Rue said:

Do you have an abridged copy handy?  

I'll have to sort through all my "Chanot" family stuff  & find it.   Now, where did I put it......................?

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I've noticed a little oddity. I've seen three 1818 F. Chanot labels (mine, plus one in the Amati archives, and one reported by the National Music Museum in SD, http://collections.nmmusd.org/Exhibitions/BeethovenBerlioz/BBChanotcello.html). They're all dated January 21st. Could that be a subtle political statement, referring to the fall of the French monarchy with the execution of Louis XVI? Was it ever customary to include a day and month on an instrument label? Later Chanots seem to have just a year.

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I'm curious as to your source. I've seen numerous citations of the patent as 1817 (one for Oct. 24). That's the year mentioned in Hodges against Chanot, along with an account of another 1818 label dated Jan. 21. On the other hand, there are also accounts of the patent dating to 1818 in an old copy of The Strad and other places. Things seem rather confused, even in the 1800s.

These 1819s don't have the date: 

http://collections.nmmusd.org/Violins/Chanot/1287/Chanot2.html 

http://collections.nmmusd.org/Violins/Chanot/10011/Chanot10011.html

 

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2 hours ago, Tom Fid said:

I'm curious as to your source.

 

 

I have no source than the label itself,  B. d'inv. = Brevete d'invention. It claims that the invention was patented at January 21st 1818. Possibly the cello was patented at a different date than the violin?

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Ahh, nice. I knew the CID was "Capitaine, Ingenieur Deuxieme" classe, but had forgotten about the "B. d’inv." You've put me on the right track.

I think there may have been more than one patent - an invention, and improvements.

B. d'inv. et de perf. de 10 ans, pris le 11 décembre 1817, par François Chanot, à Paris - cited by Heron Allen and others

A violin of the new construction was tried alternately with one of the best Straduarius violins known, in the hearing, but out of sight of the Commission, by M. Boucher, when all the members, in three consecutive trials, thought they heard the Straduarius, when it was the new violin, and vice versa, when he played on the Straduarius. About sixteen months after this trial, M. Chanot took out a brevet for improvement and addition. - from The Repertory of Patent Inventions: And Other Discoveries and Improvements which appears to quote heavily from the next link.

There's a lengthy account of the July 1817 trial and later proceedings here: Description des machines et procédés spécifiés dans les brevets d'invention including an extension patent Nov. 6, 1818. I don't see any mention of Jan. 21, but it'll take me a while to plow through this in French.

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