Steve Rodriguez

Violin neck (side) concavity

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Okay, here's a crazy question regarding the violin neck side concavity; I'm still working on my first violin.  I've read postings regarding fingerboard side concavity. 

The neck sides should be shaped to fit the side concavity of the fingerboard since the neck sides are flush with fingerboard where they join, so if the left side of the fingerboard has a different degree of concavity than the right side then the neck will also show asymmetry (left side versus right side) in this respect, but it is so slight that we don't care correct?

Thanks,

Steve

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I make the concavity of the two sides (not the top) of the fingerboard about the same, but if one does not, and the concavity of the two sides of the neck is not exactly the same, I don't think it matters much.

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I really appreciate the help David. I see now that it is okay to have a bit of asymmetry then in the neck concavity from side to side.  I was thinking of making the "side"  concavity less on the E string side than the G string side of course, and this would match the concavity on the top; in the end the thickness of the fingerboard sides would be uniform from nut to end of fingerboard. 

Regards,

Steve

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Just trying to help, since your question had gone undressed for quite a while.

Some others may have more rigid perspectives on such matters, than mine.

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They're talking about concave.  Concave is the opposite of convex.  It's normal for the sides of a violin neck, where the fingerboard is glued to it, to be concave lengthwise.

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5 minutes ago, bkwood said:

I am confused. Do you mean convex? Or are you describing something I am not getting?

Concavity of the sides of the fingerboard, end-to-end. There have been quite a few past threads, discussing various approaches, and the reasoning behind them.

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I'm not trying to be dense, but I would call that convexity. Concave describes an inward curve. I suspect I'm still not getting something though, so if you'll indulge me...

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Bkwood, the convexity I see would be the curve seen on the top of the fingerboard if you are looking down the fingerboard from the end like you would down a rifle barrel; that’s not what we are talking about.

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13 hours ago, bkwood said:

...Concave describes an inward curve...

Right.

If you hold a straight edge lengthwise along the neck/fingerboard joint of a typical violin neck, you will see that the side of the neck/fingerboard assembly curves inward, i.e., there's a gap between the straight edge and the neck.

 

 

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14 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Concavity of the sides of the fingerboard, end-to-end. There have been quite a few past threads, discussing various approaches, and the reasoning behind them.

Not that I recollect.

Michael Darnton has a brilliant explanation of the entire procedure on his violinmag.com and Jerry P. has two articles on his Triangle Strings site. Both wonderful - great pics, great explanations. You could also try your hand at a step by step tutorial and if I like I'll tell you if the bass bar needs to be sprung or not and WHY. I know we had quite a few threads on that one but they went amusingly nowhere. :lol:

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1 hour ago, carl stross said:

Do you see any discussion of various approaches there ? I don't. Couple of posts, half about something else between well meaning enthusiasts.

Did you check the links in the second thread?

There have been other posts and threads...

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3 hours ago, Brad Dorsey said:

Right.

If you hold a straight edge lengthwise along the neck/fingerboard joint of a typical violin neck, you will see that the side of the neck/fingerboard assembly curves inward, i.e., there's a gap between the straight edge and the neck.

 

 

Okay then. New to me, and I don't see it on the violins I have. And on the violins I make it's never occurred  to me to leave anything but a straight line on the joint. Nor do I see why it would result from shaping the fingerboard, unless, I guess, one is trying to compensate to keep the edge of the fingerboard exactly the same all the way along  despite the scoop. Is that what we're talking about, an itty-bitty variation of width in the edge of the fingerboard? If so, I vote to keep the joint line straight. Granted, I am self-taught, so tell me any advantage to doing otherwise. It seems to make little sense to me still...

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22 minutes ago, bkwood said:

Okay then. New to me, and I don't see it on the violins I have. And on the violins I make it's never occurred  to me to leave anything but a straight line on the joint. Nor do I see why it would result from shaping the fingerboard, unless, I guess, one is trying to compensate to keep the edge of the fingerboard exactly the same all the way along  despite the scoop. Is that what we're talking about, an itty-bitty variation of width in the edge of the fingerboard? If so, I vote to keep the joint line straight. Granted, I am self-taught, so tell me any advantage to doing otherwise. It seems to make little sense to me still...

Just to save David a post ( bites in his bench time... ) , you do whatever works best for you. There are many ways ( approaches ) of doing something and great results can be had with different ideas / approaches. Not to say that reading Michael Darnton's setup chapter on violinmag.com and doing things the right way, the way a Top shop would do things, will hurt any. Even an imbecile such as myself can get it half right doing it by the book.

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3 hours ago, bkwood said:

Okay then. New to me, and I don't see it on the violins I have. And on the violins I make it's never occurred  to me to leave anything but a straight line on the joint. Nor do I see why it would result from shaping the fingerboard, unless, I guess, one is trying to compensate to keep the edge of the fingerboard exactly the same all the way along  despite the scoop. Is that what we're talking about, an itty-bitty variation of width in the edge of the fingerboard? If so, I vote to keep the joint line straight. Granted, I am self-taught, so tell me any advantage to doing otherwise. It seems to make little sense to me still...

It is one among many things which good players are accustomed to, and "feels right" to them. Makes them all happy 'n chit.

jump.gif

Player happy, they buy violin, say nice things about you. ;)

Player not happy, they don't buy violin, say bad things. :(

Bad things get back to wife, runs off with lion trainer at the circus. :blink:

 

Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing, the gluing surfaces of the neck and the fingerboard are straight. What we've talking about is scooping the sides of the fingerboard, which will also result in scoop on the sides of the neck..

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1 hour ago, bkwood said:

..Nor do I see why [the concavity] would result from shaping the fingerboard, unless...one is trying to...keep the edge of the fingerboard exactly the same [thickness] all the way along despite the scoop.  Is that what we're talking about, an itty-bitty variation of width in the edge of the fingerboard?...

Yes, that's what we're talking about.  I don't think there's any functional reason for this concavity.  The only reason for it is to eliminate the "itty-bitty variation of width in the edge of the fingerboard" for visual aesthetics.

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Guys, thanks for all the input; I do appreciate it.  I think this Pegbox forum is awesome and it has really helped me on this first violin.

bkwood, what is most appealing to me about the concave sides is that there is a possibility it may help my playing.  As there are no frets, maybe this kinda serves the purpose of giving my brain the added sub-conscious association of width with the note so maybe my playing accuracy will improve.  I don’t know for sure though, but I am making this violin for me to play and I have been thinking to implement that technique which you see described in those links above.  My original question revolved more around what happens to the the neck near the neck-fingerboard junction; this was a bit uncertain before but this question has been answered.

Regards,

Steve

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1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing, the gluing surfaces of the neck and the fingerboard are straight. What we've talking about is scooping the sides of the fingerboard, which will also result in scoop on the sides of the neck..

Thanks for that clarification, David. It was not clear to me until now. Makes sense in a way. Especially if it keeps the players happy.

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57 minutes ago, Steve Rodriguez said:

Guys, thanks for all the input; I do appreciate it.  I think this Pegbox forum is awesome and it has really helped me on this first violin.

bkwood, what is most appealing to me about the concave sides is that there is a possibility it may help my playing.  As there are no frets, maybe this kinda serves the purpose of giving my brain the added sub-conscious association of width with the note so maybe my playing accuracy will improve.  I don’t know for sure though, but I am making this violin for me to play and I have been thinking to implement that technique which you see described in those links above.  My original question revolved more around what happens to the the neck near the neck-fingerboard junction; this was a bit uncertain before but this question has been answered.

Regards,

Steve

I am a fiddler, of the folk and bluegrass kind, and probably don't get to the upper positions enough to notice such subtle shaping. I will pay more attention now, though.

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52 minutes ago, bkwood said:

I am a fiddler, of the folk and bluegrass kind, and probably don't get to the upper positions enough to notice such subtle shaping. I will pay more attention now, though.

A lot depends on what market segment you are going after.

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