What do the Diplome d'Honneur and Grand Prix Paris credentials on this violin mean?

[GrandPhuba]

I have the opportunity to purchase an LA Ragot violin for $4000. I'm interested in knowing about the maker, and the winnerships branded inside the violin (photos below). Where do those credential come from and how do they affect the credibility of the luthier/violin?

Here is the seller's description:

Quote

Fine typical violin by Lucien Andre RAGOT, Ceret de Pyrenee´s 1953 in absolutely MINT CONDITION! incl. the maker´s certificate of authenticity; bridge still from maker, model after Guarneri del Gesu; inside several brands stating the winnership of sound contest in The Hague 1949 and numeration of violin: No. 201


Free shipping worldwide in a violin case!

From J.Dilworth report:


RAGOT, Lucien André (I) Born 1906 Wassy, Worked Céret, Pyrénées-Orientales France. Pupil of L. Mougenot, Jacquet, Gand, and R. Jacquemin. Established independently in Céret, Pyrénées-Orientales. Awarded first prize as best craftsman in France 1930, silver medal at Brussels 1931, and diploma at The Hague 1949. Cremonese models, generally preferring Guarneri. Transparent red and red-brown varnish. Lutherie d’Art / Lucien, André Ragot / Père & Fils / Céret. P.O. 1948

Here are some photos:

More photos here: https://imgur.com/a/VNImu

[JacksonMaberry]

Mint condition indeed. Looks as though it could have been finished this morning. 

[Violadamore]

IMHO, about as much as the medals and honors listed on a bottle of Scotch or on a cigar box.  Trade-show marketing hype.  Much classier than a MENC sticker, though.

If this violin is authentic, the maker won some awards from time to time, not with the violin offered, however.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Fine-violin-by-Lucien-Andre-RAGOT-Ceret-Pyrenee-s-1953-with-certificate-/162702239154?

 

[GrandPhuba]

hahaha I like the way you guys say it.

@Violadamore yes, exact listing, I reckon that since no one bought it I could haggle it down to $4000. Seller quickly said yes

[Violadamore]

Yup, I just love haggling with eBay sellers after an auction has closed without bids, have gotten some genuine prizes that way.  When it arrives, please share your further experiences with us, like how does it sound? 

[vathek]

Hmmm, did you look at his other items for sale (violins). I'm a bit suspicious.

[Violadamore]

56 minutes ago, vathek said:

Hmmm, did you look at his other items for sale (violins). I'm a bit suspicious.

Suspicious?  No, I've just considered you mildly peculiar, much like the rest of us..........OH!  You meant the seller.  I suspect you'd do better saving your money for good, solidly identifiable, "usual rubbish". 

[Dr. Ludwig]

Seller has all positive feedback ....almost all as a buyer. Only one feedback as a seller ( of a $410 bow). But still ....so much in Mint Condition?  I enjoy the usual rubbish myself but spending real money ?? Perhaps a new Machold is starting up. 

[David Burgess]

3 hours ago, Violadamore said:

IMHO, about as much as the medals and honors listed on a bottle of Scotch or on a cigar box.  Trade-show marketing hype.  Much classier than a MENC sticker, though.

If this violin is authentic, the maker won some awards from time to time, not with the violin offered, however.

 

And won them within a very small competitive venue.

Hey, how much significance should one place on a  fiddle which won the top tone award at the local chili cookoff, or the county fair demolition derby?

[jacobsaunders]

I have a customer with a Ragot Cello, which I would characterise as a diligently made new(ish) instrument, nothing to write home about, but quite good. It also has a RAGOT stamp on the bottom rib above the spike. It is quite thinly graduated. It doesn’t have any Hague exibition or similar stamps though.

 

Boasting all medals & awards, all the way down to the Allensteig Agracultual Show etc. was rife in the late 19th. C./early 20th C. The Vienna World Exibition is quite a frequent one, even Gmünder in Amrica boasts of that. The Technische Museum in Vienna has a vast Collection of steam engines from that exibition, and there is a sign on the wall, that says that they awarded 20,000 medals, so I expect you could have got one for farting.

[GrandPhuba]

@Violadamore I haven't pushed through with the purchase yet, still waiting for more validation but from what I've been seeing it looks like that will never happen. haha

@vathek yes I did see his other items, what makes you feel suspicious aside from those @Dr. Ludwig has mentioned? 

@jacobsaunders As a rough way of comparison, would you value the cello at 4k USD? 

I don't see violins as investment vehicles, but having an instrument with hi/story would be nice. I currently own a Czech violin that I got for around 1000 USD 5 years ago. It holds up but I think I'm reaching its limit. Unfortunately I'm in a country where violin shops are non-existent. Only place I can get one is through the net or when I travel.

[GeorgeH]

49 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

so I expect you could have got one for farting.

Yes, they would probably give out tone awards at the local chili cook off.

[Carl Stross]

2 hours ago, David Burgess said:

 

Hey, how much significance should one place on a  fiddle which won the top tone award at the local chili cookoff, or the county fair demolition derby?

Sorry, which one would the VSA be ?

[jacobsaunders]

1 hour ago, GrandPhuba said:

@jacobsaunders As a rough way of comparison, would you value the cello at 4k USD? 

 

If you mean my customers Cello,I have appraised it at considerably more than that.

[nathan slobodkin]

Grand Phuba,

Sometimes instruments remain in mint condition because they don't really sound well. In this case at the price you mention it would probably be worth doing whatever work was required to make it sound well if needed but if there are indeed no violin makers near you...

[David Burgess]

9 hours ago, carl stross said:

Sorry, which one would the VSA be ?

Probably neither.

VSA competitions have been entered by many or most of the top makers from all over the world.

[Carl Stross]

1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

Probably neither.

VSA competitions have been entered by many or most of the top makers from all over the world.

True. But what about the topest makers ? Stardivarius, Guarnerius, Myself, Uncle Ducke etc ? ( Sospiri ?? ). List is endless.

[David Burgess]

54 minutes ago, carl stross said:

True. But what about the topest makers ? Stardivarius, Guarnerius, Myself, Uncle Ducke etc ? ( Sospiri ?? ). List is endless.

You can enter an instrument you have made in a VSA Competition if you wish.

Dead makers, like Stradivari and Guarneri will need to submit their instruments to the "Fritz" trials, since the VSA does not currently have a category for that.

[Carl Stross]

12 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

You can enter an instrument you have made in a VSA Competition if you wish.

Dead makers, like Stradivari and Guarneri will need to submit their instruments to the "Fritz" trials, since the VSA does not currently have a category for that.

Must I make it now ? Myself ??? Can't I just sandpaper and paint a factory one ? That used to be good enough for some other competition... A European one. 

[christian bayon]

14 hours ago, David Burgess said:

And won them within a very small competitive venue.

At this time, La Haye was the most important violin making competition.

[Filipe Veríssimo]

Hi,

This is my first post, although I've been following this forum for quite some time.

A short introduction of myself, I'm 42yrs, I'm a violin player, and a enthusiast in tone relation to mechanical properties of a violin and bow. I here to learn about the violin world and share my experience.

I purchased a L.A. Ragot branded violin a few months ago. The dealer told he got it from a house contents auction in Paris.

I took it to a luthier to set it up and the luthier told it was German due to its dark red varnish. He is a French luthier and he said he never heard of Lucien André Ragot.

Did this luthier really existed or is this some kind of pseudonim? Does it make any sense?

I attach a few photos. The last one is from the top.

Regards,

Filipe

 

 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Filipe Veríssimo

[Wood Butcher]

Filipe, are the flames on the back painted on, or simulated in some way?

[Filipe Veríssimo]

7 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

Filipe, are the flames on the back painted on, or simulated in some way?

Hi,

No, the flaming is fully natural in the complete violin. 

Any clue if this could really be a authentic Ragot French violin?

Filipe

[sospiri]

10 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

Filipe, are the flames on the back painted on, or simulated in some way?

The ripples are real, you can see them in the inside photos.

[martin swan]

Interesting that both have very visible compass marks on the inner back ...