Thomas Coleman

Violin geometry references

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3 minutes ago, francoisdenis said:
 

 

so I do not understand you. Do you consider that, regardless of whether it is currently useful, recognized, seen etc ... It is important to understand how the violin was designed?

My reading is that he does not, for him. He didn't say it's not important for you.

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Just now, David Burgess said:

I think that it's really interesting,

So I'm not wrong if I say that , at least on an historical point of view uou agree that it's interesting to improve our knowledge about the origin of the violin measurement (i prefer to use the word measurement  rather than geometrie I will explain why)

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Don't we all think that there is now room for both? We know from art for example that great Renaissance paintings were laid out with proportion in mind and as the layers of working and reworking evolved the it created the final finished picture, yet a copyist would simply study the finished result, and indeed from as early as these paintings were, other artists learned by copying, which means they were not privy to the fundamental construction though they may have been theoretically aware of it, and in the process were able to produce great art that stands the test of time as compelling. The accademias positively encouraged painting copies of older masters in order to develop skills, experience and an eye. 

So I think art tells us about the dichotomy between the "architect" and the pure "empiricist" with different grades existing between them. Your not really being that empirical of your starting point is a Strad PG mould, and any originality is only in the last few percent of what a violin may be. I don't know how long this has existed, but I suspect even the Greeks would have something to say about it. 

I frequently see students from a certain college somewhere, who proudly inform me that they have made their own model according to Francois' theories - so what? The model may be perfectly original but that doesn't mean that it's a good model and it doesn't mean that the craftsmanship is anything to be proud of yet. These are no better than perfectly empirical instruments that are just as unlikely to be any good. Whatever angle one decides to come from - even at the expense of another one, there is a level of learned aesthetic judgement that has to be integral to the process. I suspect the Cremonese rejected numerous iterations of their geometry in settling on a version that ultimately they judged impirically to be best.... and then they changed it. 

Bottom line, there were probably heretics like Burgess 300 years ago. We now rate them amongst the greatest masters... 

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21 hours ago, David Beard said:

  A great writer probably wouldn't credit the theory of spelling, grammar, rhetoric, or story structure with their creative success.   But would they argue for ignorance of these things?  Some might.  But certainly not all.

 

Well, unless one can established some analytic connection between various drafting systems and the tonal character of the resulting instrument this entire discussion is intriguing, even exciting but basically going nowhere else besides satisfying an understandable academic interest. Modern makers have accurate templates and don't need to reproduce them from first principles. Whatever those might be. 

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1 minute ago, francoisdenis said:

So I'm not wrong if I say that , at least on an historical point of view uou agree that it's interesting to improve our knowledge about the origin of the violin measurement (i prefer to use the word measurement  rather than geometrie I will explain why)

Does this really need to be an issue about right or wrong? Is this some kind of silly power struggle?

You have your perspectives, and I have mine.

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I feel that those who support the idea of geometry like those in doubt misunderstand the former meaning of the concept. Geometry is above all a question of surfaces. Understanding, organization and distribution of surfaces. Here the divider plays a minor role (usually at the very beginning of construction). The outline layout is something else. This is more like the description of a trajectory, moving a point on a plan or in a space. It is actually a dynamic geometry that was more like what the ancients defined as astronomy, ie a geometry of movement. The still the compass is only an accessory in the service of the relations which one wants to put there (to think of the music of the spheres). If you prefer to work  freehands this is not a problem, just do it if you are good enough. In Brescia the measurements are exactly proportioned but the outlines are asymmetrical, which is the sign that the trajectory (the outline) and the surface that contains it are two distinct things like geometry and astronomy. Now we come closer to the quadrivium we have just to add arithmetic and music ... why not Ben?

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14 minutes ago, Ben Hebbert said:

Don't we all think that there is now room for both?..................

Bottom line, there were probably heretics like Burgess 300 years ago.

1.  Well, I do, anyway.

2.  "...........And lead us not into temptation..............."   :lol::ph34r:

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8 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Does this really need to be an issue about right or wrong? Is this some kind of silly power struggle?

 

No, just rhetorique

10 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Does this really need to be an issue about right or wrong? Is this some kind of silly power struggle?

You have your perspectives, and I have mine.

 

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13 minutes ago, francoisdenis said:


I feel that those who support the idea of geometry like those in doubt misunderstand the former meaning of the concept. Geometry is above all a question of surfaces. Understanding, organization and distribution of surfaces. Here the divider plays a minor role (usually at the very beginning of construction). The outline layout is something else. This is more like the description of a trajectory, moving a point on a plan or in a space. It is actually a dynamic geometry that was more like what the ancients defined as astronomy, ie a geometry of movement. The still the compass is only an accessory in the service of the relations which one wants to put there (to think of the music of the spheres). If you prefer to work  freehands this is not a problem, just do it if you are good enough. In Brescia the measurements are exactly proportioned but the outlines are asymmetrical, which is the sign that the trajectory (the outline) and the surface that contains it are two distinct things like geometry and astronomy. Now we come closer to the quadrivium we have just to add arithmetic and music ... why not Ben?

Why not?

To me there is a very simple answer - you are describing a kind of complex universal microcosm which draws from every single part of nature. On doing so, you are calling for ideas that are parallel to Mersenne, Anathasia Kircher, Robert Fludd, Dee, the Rosicrucians and the concept of Musica Universalis... 

I'd love to go down that route - truly,  and your post amplifies what I have said about the fact that some (student) has used your formula to create an unusual violin shape is no guarantee of quality. However or the moment I think that Geometry and/or proportion are two huge subjects until there are enough people on Maestronet who have acquainted themselves with the major texts of a sixteenth century university education. :) 

.... a picture says a thousand words, so here's why not :) IMG_4072.JPG.457b79a8937df2245beae4f22db85757.JPG

 

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5 minutes ago, francoisdenis said:


I feel that those who support the idea of geometry like those in doubt misunderstand the former meaning of the concept. Geometry is above all a question of surfaces. Understanding, organization and distribution of surfaces. Here the divider plays a minor role (usually at the very beginning of construction). The outline layout is something else. This is more like the description of a trajectory, moving a point on a plan or in a space. It is actually a dynamic geometry that was more like what the ancients defined as astronomy, ie a geometry of movement. The still the compass is only an accessory in the service of the relations which one wants to put there (to think of the music of the spheres). If you prefer to work  freehands this is not a problem, just do it if you are good enough. In Brescia the measurements are exactly proportioned but the outlines are asymmetrical, which is the sign that the trajectory (the outline) and the surface that contains it are two distinct things like geometry and astronomy. Now we come closer to the quadrivium we have just to add arithmetic and music ... why not Ben?

With all due respect, I think you need to streamline the wording. This will help get the message across. 

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21 minutes ago, Ben Hebbert said:

Don't we all think that there is now room for both? We know from art for example that great Renaissance paintings were laid out with proportion in mind and as the layers of working and reworking evolved the it created the final finished picture, yet a copyist would simply study the finished result, and indeed from as early as these paintings were, other artists learned by copying, which means they were not privy to the fundamental construction though they may have been theoretically aware of it, and in the process were able to produce great art that stands the test of time as compelling. The accademias positively encouraged painting copies of older masters in order to develop skills, experience and an eye. 

So I think art tells us about the dichotomy between the "architect" and the pure "empiricist" with different grades existing between them. Your not really being that empirical of your starting point is a Strad PG mould, and any originality is only in the last few percent of what a violin may be. I don't know how long this has existed, but I suspect even the Greeks would have something to say about it. 

I frequently see students from a certain college somewhere, who proudly inform me that they have made their own model according to Francois' theories - so what? The model may be perfectly original but that doesn't mean that it's a good model and it doesn't mean that the craftsmanship is anything to be proud of yet. These are no better than perfectly empirical instruments that are just as unlikely to be any good. Whatever angle one decides to come from - even at the expense of another one, there is a level of learned aesthetic judgement that has to be integral to the process. I suspect the Cremonese rejected numerous iterations of their geometry in settling on a version that ultimately they judged impirically to be best.... and then they changed it. 

Bottom line, there were probably heretics like Burgess 300 years ago. We now rate them amongst the greatest masters... 

well said

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2 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

 

2.  "...........And lead us not into temptation..............."   :lol::ph34r:

I imagine you as being way beyond hot, and well beyond my capacity to deliver. :)

Aren't the French guys supposed to be better at flirting? Francois, can you step up to the plate?

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3 minutes ago, Ben Hebbert said:

Why not?

To me there is a very simple answer - you are describing a kind of complex universal microcosm which draws from every single part of nature. On doing so, you are calling for ideas that are parallel to Mersenne, Anathasia Kircher, Robert Fludd, Dee, the Rosicrucians and the concept of Musica Universalis... 

I'd love to go down that route - truly,  and your post amplifies what I have said about the fact that some (student) has used your formula to create an unusual violin shape is no guarantee of quality. However or the moment I think that Geometry and/or proportion are two huge subjects until there are enough people on Maestronet who have acquainted themselves with the major texts of a sixteenth century university education. :) 

 

So, wait and see  :)

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2 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

I imagine you as being way beyond hot, and well beyond my capacity to deliver. :)

Aren't the French guys supposed to be better at flirting? Francois, can you step up to the plate?

My feeling is that I'm just trying to ask the right questions and I find it quite distracting

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19 minutes ago, carl stross said:

With all due respect, I think you need to streamline the wording. This will help get the message across. 

OK let me know what is unclear

 

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12 minutes ago, Ben Hebbert said:

ape is no guarantee of quality. However or the moment I think that Geometry and/or proportion are two huge subjects until there are enough people on Maestronet who have acquainted themselves with the major texts of a sixteenth century university education. :) 

 

 

Did 16th century education manage to land a rocket on the moon?

(Yes, I'm aware that some people claim that it was fake.)

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12 minutes ago, Ben Hebbert said:

Is that what the ladies ask you?? :) 

 Don't I wish! :lol:

I'm more like the awkward guy around the perimeter of the dance floor, looking hopelessly forlorn. :(

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12 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

 Don't I wish! :lol:

I'm more like the awkward guy around the perimeter of the dance floor, looking hopelessly forlorn. :(

If you stuck to geometry you wouldn't end up so preoccupied dreaming about your next violin shape - might give you a chance :) 

... three swipes of a compass, a couple of straight lines and you can finish up to exercise your mojo in preparation for a night of lurve... 

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