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ViolinBowbazin

Old violin stamped NS inner

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Wasn't me. Ha ha.

This is an interesting looking violin. Perhaps  if you look at the directions above on photographing instruments for identification and put up a full set of photos you may get some useful information about it. I'll be interested to see what some of our more expert contributers have to say about this.

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ViolinbowBazin,

While the picture of the stamp is a good addition we can learn much more about your violin from good clear pictures of the instrument itself than from any kind of labels. If you look at the instructions above the topic list you will get an idea of what is needed. By looking at how the violin was made knowledgeable people ( and there are some here) can make an accurate assessment of where it was made, when it was made and quite possibly who made it. This really does look like a pretty interesting violin and I hope you will post the necessary pictures to have a conversation about it here. This may be a better violin than you might think.

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Yes, from whichever side you look, you have a „copy“ of nothing in particular, which has a NS (Nemessanyi, Samuel) stamp. The Hungarians always say the surname first, then the christian name afterwards. Nemessanyi was a famous copyist, but they don’t look anything like yours. i.e. you have a copy of nothing in particular, pretending to be a copy by a famous copyist. Enough to confuse many!

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On 10/27/2017 at 2:29 PM, martin swan said:

Of course we should see photos of the body but this looks rather dodgy to me ie. a modern fake

martin from the other modern makers exhibition thread , i sort of   got the assumption that you could tell a modern antiqued copy from an older violinB)

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29 minutes ago, fiddlecollector said:

martin from the other modern makers exhibition thread , i sort of   got the assumption that you could tell a modern antiqued copy from an older violinB)

Well I wouldn't want to be accused of jumping to conclusions, but this appears from the few poor shots we have to be neither. It looks to me like a modern violin made to be passed off as an old violin. I would even venture a guess as to which city it was made in ...

With regard to my comments on the other thread, I don't suppose I've been properly stretched - Roger's famous Dorotheum del Gesu would probably get past me as an original. But there was nothing on that thread which looks remotely like a 300 year old violin - modern makers really don't seem that keen to distort the arching, put potholes in the table, induce bassbar cracks or ruin their edges and corners.

I think the real problem area is stuff which is now getting to be 100 years old, like Voller and Michael Doetsch. They can look pretty good ...

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Assuming it's an antiqued copy of an Hungarian master, and given the probability that it's made by an Hungarian copyist of antique violins, and furthermore considering the style of the photos, which looks familiar from certain Ebay listings, I'm thinking I can guess who is the maker and seller of this. Was sometimes discussed here...

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6 hours ago, Blank face said:

Assuming it's an antiqued copy of an Hungarian master, and given the probability that it's made by an Hungarian copyist of antique violins, and furthermore considering the style of the photos, which looks familiar from certain Ebay listings, I'm thinking I can guess who is the maker and seller of this. Was sometimes discussed here...

Hi,

Could you talk a bit more about your guessing?Or could you leave a link of what you discussed.Thanks.

 

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5 hours ago, martin swan said:

Well I wouldn't want to be accused of jumping to conclusions, but this appears from the few poor shots we have to be neither. It looks to me like a modern violin made to be passed off as an old violin. I would even venture a guess as to which city it was made in ...

With regard to my comments on the other thread, I don't suppose I've been properly stretched - Roger's famous Dorotheum del Gesu would probably get past me as an original. But there was nothing on that thread which looks remotely like a 300 year old violin - modern makers really don't seem that keen to distort the arching, put potholes in the table, induce bassbar cracks or ruin their edges and corners.

I think the real problem area is stuff which is now getting to be 100 years old, like Voller and Michael Doetsch. They can look pretty good ...

Hi,

could you talk more about your guessing as to which city it was made in?

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On 29.10.2017 at 2:28 AM, ViolinBowbazin said:

Hi,

Could you talk a bit more about your guessing?Or could you leave a link of what you discussed.Thanks.

 

I guess Martin and me are guessing the same (or close). It's some kind of a those who shouldn't be named thing*, but you can look here

*due to forum rules

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On ‎29‎.‎10‎.‎2017 at 2:40 AM, ViolinBowbazin said:

Hi,

could you talk more about your guessing as to which city it was made in?

I think that there is always, sooner or later, the point where one should give up. The essence of a copy or fake, is that it is trying it's best to dupe you regarding age and origin. In this case, someone who didn't feel able to pull of a fake that would really fool anyone in the trade, has used the underhanded tactic of making a superficially aged violin, and by implication pointed the pleno titulo punter towards a known 19th C. copyist. A kind of fake squared if you like. The chances of authenticating who actually made it are infinitesimal, unless you (or BF) know him personally. I'm sure that Martin can blather on till the cows come home speculating, but that wouldn't even be of tangential interest. The only speculation that might be valid, would be that the misuse of the Nemessanyi name might suggest it could come from the Hungarian region.

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On 28/10/2017 at 7:39 PM, martin swan said:

Well I wouldn't want to be accused of jumping to conclusions, but this appears from the few poor shots we have to be neither. It looks to me like a modern violin made to be passed off as an old violin. I would even venture a guess as to which city it was made in ...

With regard to my comments on the other thread, I don't suppose I've been properly stretched - Roger's famous Dorotheum del Gesu would probably get past me as an original. But there was nothing on that thread which looks remotely like a 300 year old violin - modern makers really don't seem that keen to distort the arching, put potholes in the table, induce bassbar cracks or ruin their edges and corners.

I think the real problem area is stuff which is now getting to be 100 years old, like Voller and Michael Doetsch. They can look pretty good ...

I dont see how it can be new. The bushing of the pegs is not particualrly nice. The pegs have not been fitted well, the A peg stands out further on both sides, whereas the D peg is essentially too short. Someone did this cheaply. It seems t be half edged in places (fine line on the right side)  - who would do this for a copy? You can see that it has been opened, varnish of glue residues. Also, it does not make sense to copy without attributing the copy at least loosely to a know maker. The NM could also just be the initials of a relatively unknow, probably German, maker.  

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35 minutes ago, uguntde said:

I dont see how it can be new. The bushing of the pegs is not particualrly nice. The pegs have not been fitted well, the A peg stands out further on both sides, whereas the D peg is essentially too short. Someone did this cheaply. It seems t be half edged in places (fine line on the right side)  - who would do this for a copy? You can see that it has been opened, varnish of glue residues. Also, it does not make sense to copy without attributing the copy at least loosely to a know maker. The NM could also just be the initials of a relatively unknow, probably German, maker.  

I certainly can't say much about age or authenticity of this instrument especially from these photos but since there are clever salesman who can probably get ten thousand dollars for any instrument that the buyer believes is old I think there are many people in the world who would go to great lengths for that kind of money including all of the repairs listed above. The fact that you are taking the sloppiness of the repairs as proof of age would certainly help sell the fraud.

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1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

 The chances of authenticating who actually made it are infinitesimal, unless you (or BF) know him personally. I'm sure that Martin can blather on till the cows come home speculating, but that wouldn't even be of tangential interest. The only speculation that might be valid, would be that the misuse of the Nemessanyi name might suggest it could come from the Hungarian region.

As usually,  Jacob is mostly right, and I think that there's a good chance that I once met the seller of similar stuff(or one of his relatives) personally;).

My opinion, and it's just opinion, but an informed, is based not only on the object itself, but more on the style of presentating it with this style of corny, blurred and highly exposured photos, which appears deliberate. As uguntde described, it leads easily to confusion, some scribed lines could be seen as edge doubling, bushing, applied dirt as reglueing, unfitting pegs etc. etc., all features of a certain style of antiquing,

One might compare the photo from the linked thread with the OP scroll, and take an eye open, if similar stuff pops up at Ebay from time to time.

 

image.thumb.png.15fae5e3e036c1f0f745aec036e1c267.png

 

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Jacob you do me a dis-service.

i have not blathered on till the cows come home and I have a pretty good idea who made the violin.

Blank Face has linked to the relevant info.

however, I agree 100% with your analysis even if the violin actually found its final identity in Germany

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46 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Jacob you do me a dis-service.

i have not blathered on till the cows come home and I have a pretty good idea who made the violin.

Blank Face has linked to the relevant info.

however, I agree 100% with your analysis even if the violin actually found its final identity in Germany

Fair enough.

Mind you, if I was in for the „full half hour“ argument, I could point out that I didn’t suggest you were „blathering on….“, just warned someone not to egg you on:)

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The full half hour sounds like fun 

Were I in fact to 'blather on' you have stated that this would only be of tangential interest. Isn't that an oxymoron?

also a bit unreasonable to damn me for the substance I haven't yet said

 

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