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A Stainer for only $66,000?


Televet
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Surprised to see  this in the unsold lots with an after sales offer of 50,000 pounds. Did I miss something? There appeared to be no really significant condition issues as far as I could see. I would be grateful if anyone who handled  this instrument would care to comment. I had expected to see this at least hitting close to the  upper estimate? Martin?

 

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That is not a Stainer made violin. I've seen this violin. Online photos. Where do you lads get this crazy OCD!

How much do you really know about how few instruments this dead guy made? This same photo of a copy of a Stainer is bloody well all over the internet and it's proportions, the edge work, the wood, the crap set up. Another con.

I've got a real Stainer and it's not that one thank goodness.

Anyone want to ask me how to play with that? I'm a bloody virtuoso violinist and violist. But I am a fast player, good spin bowler and I actually make violins, as well as use s--- like this to vent on when I am asked to restore varnish on crap like this. I don't btw. I'd like to stop complaining but I can't...

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Clean your pallet, Morgana.  It'll make you feel better. :)  If you haven't seen it, I'll mention that the Stainer viola is especially wonderful.  http://nmmusd.org/Collections  Follow the prompts through bowed string instruments before 1800, and then to Stainer for photos.

Both violin and viola: Walnut linings & end blocks on the slab intact. Fun stuff.

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On ‎11‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 8:57 PM, morgana said:

That is not a Stainer made violin. I've seen this violin. Online photos. Where do you lads get this crazy OCD!

How much do you really know about how few instruments this dead guy made? This same photo of a copy of a Stainer is bloody well all over the internet and it's proportions, the edge work, the wood, the crap set up. Another con.

I've got a real Stainer and it's not that one thank goodness.

Anyone want to ask me how to play with that? I'm a bloody virtuoso violinist and violist. But I am a fast player, good spin bowler and I actually make violins, as well as use s--- like this to vent on when I am asked to restore varnish on crap like this. I don't btw. I'd like to stop complaining but I can't...

Is this what they call 'chippy Brit satire' or is this rage genuine? The pictures are from Tarisio, and there seems no chorus of experts standing up to question this violin's authenticity. Situated  the wastelands of icy Canada, I was unable to make the trip to London to the Tarisio viewing. What makes this not a Stainer in your expert opinion. From my very limited knowledge of violin history I understand there are a number of dead guys who made violins in the past in small and sometimes larger numbers?

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At the risk of breaking the rules of maestronet etiquette, I think the Tarisio instrument has a lot of similarities to this one, although this seems a little big for a Stainer

https://brobstviolinshop.com/instruments/jacob-stainer-absam-c-1655/

To my eye both of these have a different look than other Stainers that I have seen (which includes many of the major museum specimens), especially around the sound holes, but perhaps it just goes to show how little I know and how bad my eye is.

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31 minutes ago, deans said:

At the risk of breaking the rules of maestronet etiquette, I think the Tarisio instrument has a lot of similarities to this one, although this seems a little big for a Stainer

https://brobstviolinshop.com/instruments/jacob-stainer-absam-c-1655/

To my eye both of these have a different look than other Stainers that I have seen (which includes many of the major museum specimens), especially around the sound holes, but perhaps it just goes to show how little I know and how bad my eye is.

One should consider, that a "Stainer" doesn't look always the same like another Stainer, especially not what one might have in mind as a stereotype.

Both the OP and the Brobst shop are from the early working period with a much more Amati influenced look reg. corners or ff, similar to the Berlin Stainer in the Musikinstrumentenmuseum we discussed for instance here (page 5).

 

The model usually associated with him is a slow development from later periods, like the 1668 example with shorter corners and ff:

http://collections.nmmusd.org/Violins/Before1800/Stainerviolin.html

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2 hours ago, deans said:

At the risk of breaking the rules of maestronet etiquette, I think the Tarisio instrument has a lot of similarities to this one, although this seems a little big for a Stainer

https://brobstviolinshop.com/instruments/jacob-stainer-absam-c-1655/

To my eye both of these have a different look than other Stainers that I have seen (which includes many of the major museum specimens), especially around the sound holes, but perhaps it just goes to show how little I know and how bad my eye is.

This seems very typical to me and completely authentic.

I note that it's described as being in "excellent condition" - maybe another case of the difference between American English and British English :ph34r:.

Ask a Brit in an average mood how he's feeling : "Not bad, no real complaints, a few aches and pains. Terrible weather we're having isn't it ...?"

Ask a yank in an average mood how he's feeling : "EXCELLENT!!"

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On 11/1/2017 at 9:57 PM, morgana said:

That is not a Stainer made violin. I've seen this violin. Online photos. Where do you lads get this crazy OCD!

How much do you really know about how few instruments this dead guy made? This same photo of a copy of a Stainer is bloody well all over the internet and it's proportions, the edge work, the wood, the crap set up. Another con.

I've got a real Stainer and it's not that one thank goodness.

Anyone want to ask me how to play with that? I'm a bloody virtuoso violinist and violist. But I am a fast player, good spin bowler and I actually make violins, as well as use s--- like this to vent on when I am asked to restore varnish on crap like this. I don't btw. I'd like to stop complaining but I can't...

I am not quite sure what you are saying. I'm trying...but failing..

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16 minutes ago, Rue said:

I am not quite sure what you are saying. I'm trying...but failing..

You aren't missing it. If he or she does have a real Stainer, and this is what the market feels is a reasonable price for one, then his/her "investment" is somewhat compromised. This one has to be criticized or downgraded in order to make the other one more desirable.

Perhaps "Excellent" means excellent for something that old, and it has all of the typical repairs/restorations that one would expect for a violin of that age.

 

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15 minutes ago, Rue said:

I am not quite sure what you are saying. I'm trying...but failing..

Morgana is/was probably just having a bad day ...!

On another thread she claims to have a Strad too.

I really can't see any issues with the Tarisio Stainer (with the obvious and clearly addressed exception of the head). With regard to the attribution, you can go with Morgana or you can go with Benjamin Schroeder.

Hmmmmmmmmm .. tricky choice. One is an angry and anonymous virtuoso/Strad and Stainer owner/spin bowler, the other is the modest and implacable world renowned authority on the early German school.

To answer Televet's question, my own take is that this was a poor sounding example. The letter from Sammons probably set up quite an expectation which the violin didn't meet. Replacement head - that is quite significant ...

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Maybe it's a flaw of the photography, but the Tarisio's seem to have lost lots of it's varnish, possibly this, together with the missing scroll could be another explanation for the discount in pricing. Tonal issues could be possibly improved with set up or internal (patches, bar etc.) alterations. But it's not my subject to judge this.

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3 hours ago, martin swan said:

there is one auction house in the UK who has what we have started to call a "normalising tape measure":)

Big violins become a bit smaller, small violins become a bit bigger

 

3 hours ago, deans said:

I bought an instrument online from a major auction that was listed as 358, in my hands its 353 with a short stop, wasn't happy about that one. Fortunately not too expensive. One of the risks of not showing up in person.

They should adopt the eWeasel strategy of including verbiage after a table of nominal measurements, like "All item Special Hand Made, not same measure may vary.  Measure use eye, may vary few mm.  Please Understand!!", to protect themselves from claims.  I'm sure they'll get better at e-selling as they gain more experience at it.  :lol:

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I dated a woman who was a translator for the US Govt. She was involved with the administration of the SALT 2 Treaty, so I read it (the treaty). Numerous items that were used for verification were specified. The tape measure, brand and model, was specified, and ONLY that brand and model could be used to, as I recall "unambiguously determine" the measurement.

 

Perhaps we need a standard measuring device, standardized training for all auction houses and dealers in the proper use of the device, and, well, unambiguously take most of the fun out of figuring out what they are trying to sell us.

 

If it said 353 and I found it to be 358, I'd be pissed. Who dunit?

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  • 2 weeks later...
On ‎03‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 6:36 PM, martin swan said:

Morgana is/was probably just having a bad day ...!

On another thread she claims to have a Strad too.

I really can't see any issues with the Tarisio Stainer (with the obvious and clearly addressed exception of the head). With regard to the attribution, you can go with Morgana or you can go with Benjamin Schroeder.

Hmmmmmmmmm .. tricky choice. One is an angry and anonymous virtuoso/Strad and Stainer owner/spin bowler, the other is the modest and implacable world renowned authority on the early German school.

To answer Televet's question, my own take is that this was a poor sounding example. The letter from Sammons probably set up quite an expectation which the violin didn't meet. Replacement head - that is quite significant ...

Bad day, Swanny...or should I say that I was supposed to say that I am not a virtuoso violinist and I don't have a Sticker on my Stainer, on the varnish with a lot number?

Youtube is like my mind. Full of things, not all of them are nice.

If you want some lessons.....

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