Kimmo89

Casein glue and ground

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Kimmo89   

There is many topics of this already.

 

Now I tried to make my own casein ground.

After adding lime to quark, no ?emulsion? at all, instead of this the mixture seems to be dirty white clear. Where did the milk go? Not any kind of lumps.

 

I used a mixture of 25g quark, around 12g lime water (calciumhydroxide 10g to 30ml water)

I know the mixture is too much but how about the ratio?

 

I see many topics of casein, but none of them tells how to make the ground. Even if someone asks, people are starting to talk other things.

 

So how to make this?

The only recipe in internet does not work.

 

Can fat free milk be used to make casein ground or only glue? What is the difference between making ground and glue?

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I have made casein glue from fat free milk and vinegar, never actually used it on a fiddle though. I always thought the glue and ground were the same. What is quake?

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Kimmo89   

Quark.

I think its somehow like cottage cheese. 0.3% fat.

But I dont really know where all the white did go after mixing lime.

 

If im making it from milk then, add vinegar until its in good lump?

Then add lime and drop of linseed oil?

 

I dont know if the ground and glue is the same, but I see people making this from different materials.

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HoGo   

Casein is the precipitate after you add acid to milk. Basicly quark is the casein that was not yet dried (may contain adiitives or preservatives or traces of other stuff from milk, read the package).

I'd prefer making my own from fat free milk adding vinegar to precipitate the casein, then rinse with clean water to get rid of excess vinegar and then filter off the casein. You can dry it for future use or use it now.

Once you add base (lime water) the casein dissolves, you only add enough lime till the lumps dissolve into smooth solution and then add water to consistency you want... For gluing use it thicker, for ground very thin in several applications just like some makers used hide glue. Remember that base dictates properties of the resulting glue/ground, it can be more or less water resistant etc..

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Kimmo89   

I see my problem was that I was using wrong kind of milk product.

No wonder there was no one small lump.

It looked like a mouth of a dog with rabies.

 

Thanks. I think I will get it now.

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Kimmo89   

Also with a fat free milk, its not looking normal to me.

 

And last, with a lime, the casein is just not melting. Most of the liquid in the second picture is already lime water.

 

Vinegar is normal I think. The bottle says 10% vinegar acid.

 

 

And I tought this was easiest thing what can be done.

maito 003.JPG

maito 005.JPG

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Kimmo89   

I never give up. Selfmade or nothing.

But I still dont get it, if I follow instructions and it still goes wrong. Is it me or are the finnish cows sick?

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I had a coworker that made it from raw milk-- was it raw goat's milk? I may be foolish (for more reasons than this,) but it seems to me that lipids and fats are what you want in casein-- is the fat-free stuff what most are using? Or does it just not smell as bad...

 

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The music is pretty dramatic, ...https://youtu.be/cigLvk_WS5w ... worked for me . Used it on a ground.Powdered dry milk works ,so does soft motzarela and soft cheese curd. Apparently the base material , baking sofa ammonia or what not can have some effect on water resistance ,but I haven't done enough to know.

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Fjodor   

Kimmo,
I have followed the grounding recipe on Peter KG:s homepage on some violins and it has worked well for me.
I used pit lime from Kremer and fat free quark + a little bit of linseed oil.
http://www.thestradsound.com/varnish

Earlier I have also tried making casein with powder, water and ammonia. Mix casein powder and water then add drops of ammonia and stir until it dissolves.
The powder/ammonia casein looks a little different from Peters recipe, something like the third picture here.

casein.JPG.81d0652b4cbbbaee36293adc5c98bade.JPG


You can buy stronger ammonia from the pharmacy.

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15 hours ago, Berl Mendenhall said:

Just hang on don't give up. You may have to make a few batches to get it right. Also a little side note, the Borden company makes Tight Bond glue, the Borden co. Is a darie co.

Berl, 

When I worked for Roland Feller in SF he told me that at Wurlitzer's they used Borden's white glue to glue in cleats, but that was before they changed the formula. My understanding is that it used to be casein glue, and now is some kind of plastic.

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Kimmo89   
20 hours ago, HoGo said:

Once you add base (lime water) the casein dissolves, you only add enough lime till the lumps dissolve into smooth solution and then add water to consistency you want...

Lime water does not dissolve the casein. I tried it last night and right now and same result. Casein is not melting.

 

Milk is fat free, now from "best" company from Finland. Used no more than 2 teaspoons vinegar to get the casein out in one large lump. The lump was not too smooth on surface.

Casein lump was washed under water. I did not brake the lump to get all the vinegar off inside it.

I now tried lime water 5g calcium hydroxide in 30ml water. Is this enought?

 

Also I tried using different temperatures. In room temperature almost nothing happens, only small little lumps. In 40C I got one large lump.

When adding lime water, I tried temperatures between room temperature - 120C. No melting is happening.

 

What am I doing wrong?

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Kimmo89   
7 hours ago, Fjodor said:

Kimmo,
I have followed the grounding recipe on Peter KG:s homepage on some violins and it has worked well for me.
I used pit lime from Kremer and fat free quark + a little bit of linseed oil.
http://www.thestradsound.com/varnish

Earlier I have also tried making casein with powder, water and ammonia. Mix casein powder and water then add drops of ammonia and stir until it dissolves.
The powder/ammonia casein looks a little different from Peters recipe, something like the third picture here.

casein.JPG.81d0652b4cbbbaee36293adc5c98bade.JPG


You can buy stronger ammonia from the pharmacy.

This is how I did it in the first message when using quark. I did not get any casein lumbs like in Peters pictures. All what happened was tiny bubbles almost clear, very soft. The milk seemed to disappear completly.

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34 minutes ago, Kimmo89 said:

Lime water does not dissolve the casein.

I had this problem too, and in my case it was my lime that was crap, not the casein. Worked very well with ammonia instead.

And yes, there is a whole book about Casein, full of recipes!
Casein; its preparation and technical utilisation:
https://archive.org/details/caseinitsprepara00scherich

This video is the most informative i have found about the process, it not only shows how to make casein, but how to purify it:

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44 minutes ago, Kimmo89 said:

This is how I did it in the first message when using quark. I did not get any casein lumbs like in Peters pictures. All what happened was tiny bubbles almost clear, very soft. The milk seemed to disappear completly.

Kimmo, 

What I'm doing is so simple that I think you are overthinking it!

(Vinegar is used to make this quark, cheese curd in the manufacturing stage)

Eli Maitorahka 0.3% ja sammutettu kalkki ei muuta

Mix together 1 min and you are done, preferably add a little linseed oil 

Last image is leftover left to dry. It's transparent Casein/Lime glue

 

59de6d17b3cd3_2014-12-1118_53_54.thumb.jpg.975c8809d4224867cc99b92a3f571106.jpg

59de6d37d6871_2014-01-1816_39_57.thumb.jpg.ccbe0571d87c188317d16a8f5c8d85ca.jpg

59de6d5892427_2014-04-0117_42_29.thumb.jpg.bc1e8dbb215241bd4def4a3d02b92b38.jpg

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Fjodor   
23 minutes ago, Daniel P.N said:

I had this problem too, and in my case it was my lime that was crap, not the casein. Worked very well with ammonia instead. 

I also suspect the lime might be the problem in Kimmo case. 

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Kimmo89   
47 minutes ago, Peter K-G said:

Kimmo, 

What I'm doing is so simple that I think you are overthinking it!

(Vinegar is used to make this quark, cheese curd in the manufacturing stage)

Eli Maitorahka 0.3% ja sammutettu kalkki ei muuta

Mix together 1 min and you are done, preferably add a little linseed oil 

Last image is leftover left to dry. It's transparent Casein/Lime glue

Again, this is what I did but in larger size (too large but about the same ratio)

I dont know if the word "spongy" or "foamy" describles the stuff i got from it. Tiny bubbles, nothing else. (kuohkea kuplia täynnä oleva, lähes väritön sekoitus)

Maybe the lime is the problem then...

 

I then have to buy new calcium hydroxide. I used this for my varnish too. It seemed to work but I will get rid of it.

 

Waste of time and money.

 

 

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HoGo   

Perhaps you are using too much acid and do not clean the casein enough so when you add the base it reacts with the free acid and creates the bubbles.

Also sometimes is MUCH easier to make stuff like this in several small batcher rather than one large. Washing big clump of casein may require few times more effort than washing few smaller....

You can try adding dry lime to water-casein mixture. And keep adding till it dissolves.

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Too many makers are fixated on casein per se or casein glue for finishing wood surfaces. My experience is that skim milk replacing water to make hide glue produces a water-resistant glue that can be diluted to make a wood size. Skim milk is loaded with casein if that's what you want. 

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