BassClef

I Struck Gold on the Electronic Bay (what carat?) - 1/8 Antique Violin - Info Requested

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29 minutes ago, Bill Yacey said:

I said  "if" not "is'.

I'm not sufficiently qualified to appraise higher end violins such as the one you have procured. I hope you have taken out insurance when it was purchased?

Just kidding around. But seriously, do you think the OP violin is a worthless piece of junk? How much, if anything, would you pay for it as it sits, with period bow, period tailpiece, and period case?

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1 hour ago, BassClef said:

Just kidding around. But seriously, do you think the OP violin is a worthless piece of junk? How much, if anything, would you pay for it as it sits, with period bow, period tailpiece, and period case?

Roughly between ¥500 and  ¥1000 (JPY), with Free Shipping. :ph34r:   I could probably get $30 for it at the flea market, just on the "cuteness" factor. :lol:

But I'm not interested.  I already have a 1/8 I'm setting up for a grandchild. :)

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11 hours ago, Bill Yacey said:

The scythe and pitchfork wielding members let you off easy.

It's not like the old days when they would burn you and the violin at the stake in the village square.:lol:

Hi Bill - I wonder if there's any correlation with the increase in global temperatures - reducing the need for bonfires for warmth?

cheers edi

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11 hours ago, Bill Yacey said:

The scythe and pitchfork wielding members let you off easy.

It's not like the old days when they would burn you and the violin at the stake in the village square.:lol:

 

12 minutes ago, edi malinaric said:

Hi Bill - I wonder if there's any correlation with the increase in global temperatures - reducing the need for bonfires for warmth?

cheers edi

No, it's concern for reducing air pollution and improving stewardship of endangered species.  We've started throwing them to lions instead.  :ph34r:

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11 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

 

No, it's concern for reducing air pollution and improving stewardship of endangered species.  We've started throwing them to lions instead.  :ph34r:

Cruel - why would one want to drive the the lions towards extinction?

cheers edi

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Seriously, If BC wanted to put his scientist hat on, and study how someone made the cheapest possible ¼ sized violin for parsimonous clients in about 10 hours from a solid lump of wood, then he has a suitiable object to study. Anyone who thinks that this accomplishment or ability is to be despised, should try doing it.

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14 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

 

Seriously, If BC wanted to put his scientist hat on, and study how someone made the cheapest possible ¼ sized violin for parsimonous clients in about 10 hours from a solid lump of wood, then he has a suitiable object to study. Anyone who thinks that this accomplishment or ability is to be despised, should try doing it.

Don't know.....probably there is a lot of competition.

This one has the courage to make some regards to Vienna (s. labelling of the case). Unfortunately I missed it.:huh:

piece-of-wood-in-case.jpg

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BTW, everybody who's assuming that this thread is in some way unserious, humorous or ironical, might be on the wrong track.;)

Definitely.

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9 hours ago, BassClef said:

I see what you're doing... cozying up to me in order to legitimize your worthless piece of junk Chinese factory VSO. Trying to get a little shine on your treasure at my expense. Lots of tongue-in-cheek faux-self-depricating insults. Well, it worked. So go ahead my fren, and post photos of your thing, I've been feeling a baseline nausea ever since my important instrument has come under attack and photos of your junk (violin) might get the vomit flowing. Do it.

Base Clef, I fear you have become that which you loathe -detractor in chief, in fact! 

I am struggling to maintain my customary equanimity............in the face of the ultimate 'junk violin afficionado'  put - down.

I keep hearing it      "VSO"  rattling over and over;

"VSO,VSO"                                                                                             "VSO"                            "VSO"    

   " He actually said VSO"        

                 "I can't believe it, he said VSO......" 

How dare he I mutter, half - crazed with the anger, and the fear of the humiliation I might endure when I post pictures of "my treasure -  post "photos of my thing"

(your words, not mine.....and Martin, please join in at pg 4, obviously the insults are just starting to fly).

The taunt "your worthless piece of junk Chinese factory VSO".

Who are you to make such a judgement?(If I may be so bold as to quote a comment elsewhere in this thread).

I had mistaken you for a brother - in - arms when in fact it would appear my "VSO" would have more respect from Jacob Saunders 

"how someone made the cheapest possible ¼ sized violin for parsimonous clients in about 10 hours from a solid lump of wood......... Anyone who thinks that this accomplishment or ability is to be despised, should try doing it".

And wasn't it he who advised privately to consign your $35 violin to the rubbish skip?

I'll have you know that my collectable cost me absolutely NUTHIN ' !

So there!!  :P

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10 hours ago, BassClef said:

So could this violin have been made between 1945-1993 or not? What gives???

 

9 hours ago, Violadamore said:

I would question whether any German violins were commercially imported into the USA from 1942 to 1945

i'm still learning , but i can give you the references for more details .

-     regarding to the word " Made in " & the estimated years  , here is the link : http://violininformation.webs.com/instrumentid.htm 

-     about the word ( Copy of ) after 1957 , you can find here : http://www.afvbm.org/found-stradivarius-violin/ 

-     the history of the  frictional sizes : http://theviolinsfr.yolasite.com/information.php 

-     regarding to the violin exported from Germany during ( 1942 _ 1945 ) , the answer is yes , with a fake labels written in french mentioned the place of origin in " Paris " , or exporting from the border of Austria or Czechoslovakia ...... , also there is some labels during that era mentioned Labels with " (U.S. Zone) or (US Zone Made in Germany) " would be from (1945 – 1949) "   http://violininformation.webs.com/instrumentid.htm 

---------------------------------------------------------- 

German Labels History :

Labels with " Sachsen " would be (before 1891) 
Labels with " Saxony) or (Saxony law ) or ( Deutschland) " would be from (1891 – 1914) 
Labels with " Made in Deutschland " would be from (1914 – 1921) 
Labels with " Made in Germany " would be from (1921 – 1939 & after 1990)
Labels with " (U.S. Zone) or (US Zone Made in Germany) " would be from (1945 – 1949)
Labels with " (Made in West Germany) or (Made in East Germany) " would be from (1949 – 1990) 

======================================== 

i hope if there are some articles or books for violin identification or appraising , so please let me know about these books ?

 

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mood2000 is still learning.

"  about the word ( Copy of ) after 1957 , you can find here : http://www.afvbm.org/found-stradivarius-violin/  "

From your reference: " After that date, for legal reasons, the words "Copy of" were often included on the labels. "  This is not a hard and fast rule! This says "were often included", not required to. And just as often, instruments made before those dates included the words "Copy of".

"regarding to the violin exported from Germany during ( 1942 _ 1945 ) , the answer is yes , with a fake labels written in french mentioned the place of origin in " Paris " , or exporting from the border of Austria or Czechoslovakia ...... , also there is some labels during that era mentioned Labels with " (U.S. Zone) or (US Zone Made in Germany) " would be from (1945 – 1949) " "

You have to remember that during those war years, MANY of the men that made violins were conscripted into the German army! Also, during that period, materials, including things like shellac for varnish, were very difficult to find. (From accounts told by Hans J. Nebel, who was a child, in a violin making family, during that period.)

As for your early German label history. The McKinley Tariff Act of 1890 required labels with the country of origin after 1891. Before that, they might not have any label.

In 1914, labels were required to state "Made in". In 1921, the country of origin must be in English.

Personally, I have never seen an instrument labeled "Sachsen". During the period 1891 to 1921, instruments were not always labeled Saxony or Deutschland. Many, if not most, were labeled Germany. Those with more experience than me can chime in with corrections.

 

 

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9 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Seriously, If BC wanted to put his scientist hat on, and study how someone made the cheapest possible ¼ sized violin for parsimonous clients in about 10 hours from a solid lump of wood, then he has a suitiable object to study. Anyone who thinks that this accomplishment or ability is to be despised, should try doing it.

Thank you for your support.

Who here could voltron a team people who could do a better job in 10 hours? (Don't forget about the purfling)

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9 hours ago, Blank face said:

Don't know.....probably there is a lot of competition.

This one has the courage to make some regards to Vienna (s. labelling of the case). Unfortunately I missed it.:huh:

piece-of-wood-in-case.jpg

I have seen this instrument before. Thank you for posting this rare and valuable fractional Viennese instrument of high esteem.

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6 hours ago, mood2000 said:

 

i'm still learning , but i can give you the references for more details .

-     regarding to the word " Made in " & the estimated years  , here is the link : http://violininformation.webs.com/instrumentid.htm 

-     about the word ( Copy of ) after 1957 , you can find here : http://www.afvbm.org/found-stradivarius-violin/ 

-     the history of the  frictional sizes : http://theviolinsfr.yolasite.com/information.php 

-     regarding to the violin exported from Germany during ( 1942 _ 1945 ) , the answer is yes , with a fake labels written in french mentioned the place of origin in " Paris " , or exporting from the border of Austria or Czechoslovakia ...... , also there is some labels during that era mentioned Labels with " (U.S. Zone) or (US Zone Made in Germany) " would be from (1945 – 1949) "   http://violininformation.webs.com/instrumentid.htm 

---------------------------------------------------------- 

German Labels History :

Labels with " Sachsen " would be (before 1891) 
Labels with " Saxony) or (Saxony law ) or ( Deutschland) " would be from (1891 – 1914) 
Labels with " Made in Deutschland " would be from (1914 – 1921) 
Labels with " Made in Germany " would be from (1921 – 1939 & after 1990)
Labels with " (U.S. Zone) or (US Zone Made in Germany) " would be from (1945 – 1949)
Labels with " (Made in West Germany) or (Made in East Germany) " would be from (1949 – 1990) 

======================================== 

i hope if there are some articles or books for violin identification or appraising , so please let me know about these books ?

 

Some of this I've previously addressed in other threads.   The references you give (Thank You!!) are "disclaimer" or "debunker" pages kindly provided by dealers and organizations to warn the public that all that says "Stradivarius" on the label is not "gold", as part of collections of general violin information.  They are good as far as they go, but are not what I would call specialist references for violin dating, and contain errors stemming from incomplete scholarship.  I find this quite allowable considering their primary intent, which is achieved, if only the "public" (which streams in here daily, hysterically waving their "attic Strads", and pitiably soliciting verification ) would read them.  Some confusion is caused by writers on the subject who work from general legal or historical references covering all manner of goods, and pass along their reasonings from that, rather than limiting themselves to what can be attested from the surviving violins themselves.  Many of us here are painfully aware that once a defective secondary source gets referenced into another secondary source, scholarship can become a game of "Gossip".  This page that you referenced, http://violininformation.webs.com/tradeinstruments.htm , however, has one of the most excellent and exhaustive lists of manufacturers and importers of trade instruments that I have ever seen.  Thanks again!

"Sachsen" is common on Dresden porcelain, but I have yet to personally see it (or any other German regional marking) applied to a trade violin found in the USA.  The massive production and exportation of Markneukirchen/Schoenbach violins occurred after 1870, which is when "Deutschland" was unified, so it is quite possible that no "Markies" with "Sachsen" McKinley national origin markings exist.  The Dresden china industry long predates Imperial Germany, so the "Sachsen" marking (along with "Dresden") had become traditional on that class of goods (and mere legality ignored in practice, by some manufacturers, right to the present day).  I mention the Dresden china connection because most Internet antique dating references that include "Sachsen" do so because of the china, which would be obvious from the identification photos that they post.

What I see in in practice is that, prior to the 1890's, when the UK, quickly followed by the US, got snooty about national origin markings, Mark/Sch trade fiddles were labeled with the sort of fake maker's labels that have been traditional in the violin trade since Stradivarius himself was alive, and routinely ignored by everyone in the business.  The first national origin marking that I've seen appear is a very small "Germany" under a very large "Antonius Stradivarius" (with no serious attempt to copy the format or typeface of genuine Strad labels).  I have yet to see a "Deutschland" or a "Bohemia" on a violin label, which while it doesn't categorically exclude their existence, suggests to me that at least the majority of Markies exported to the US were labeled to suit Anglophones to begin with, and were exported via Markneukirchen (whether or not they came from Schoenbach) for reasons of expediency.

Regarding the probability of German violins reaching the US during WW II, or even being produced at all, one of your own references states "Label says 'Made in Germany' – made from 1921-1939 or post 1990.  From 1939-1945 instruments did not flow out of Europe due to the war and only trickled out from 1945-1949. ".  As Doug noted, most of the makers were drafted into the Wehrmacht during those years, bringing production to a halt.

IMHO, there is zero chance that BC's wooden monstrosity prized cultural artifact was produced after WW II, so I'll stop at that point. :)

 

 

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Does anyone reading know about violin and bow and tailpiece wood?

What types of wood is the violin, fingerboard, tailpiece, button, and bow made from? Please describe to the best of your ability the grades of wood and (presuming a very low grade) what part of what kind of trees were used to produce such a quality. Serious responses only, but adjectives of any kind appreciated.

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12 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

Some of this I've previously addressed in other threads.   The references you give (Thank You!!) are "disclaimer" or "debunker" pages kindly provided by dealers and organizations to warn the public that all that says "Stradivarius" on the label is not "gold", as part of collections of general violin information.  They are good as far as they go, but are not what I would call specialist references for violin dating, and contain errors stemming from incomplete scholarship.  I find this quite allowable considering their primary intent, which is achieved, if only the "public" (which streams in here daily, hysterically waving their "attic Strads", and pitiably soliciting verification ) would read them.

 :)

 

 

I've run into more than a few people claiming to have a genuine Stradivarius, and still convinced after pointing out the label says : copy of,  made in Czechoslovakia.

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The circumstance that BF’s violin belly was roughly "hogged out“ as I was shocked to learn unsofisticated Americans call it, with an integral (or here perhaps better "left over") bar, might suggest that his acquisition was nearer to 1919 than later. Pre-WWI Schönbach violins would have been "made in Austria“, although tens of thousands were routinely smuggled across the boarder and became German.

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3 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

The circumstance that BF’s violin belly.............

His username is BassClef, abbreviated "BC", but I feel that your typo has a certain inner truth, seen as British colloquial usage.  Freudian slip? :lol:

Jacob, I have yet to see an "Austria" example in a Markie, which suggests to me that the Markneukirchen wholesalers economically ignored its existence, and used "Made in Germany" until Weimar was being bullied over the "nationalities" issue post World War I.  Reasonable? :)

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31 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

The circumstance that BF’s violin belly was roughly "hogged out“ as I was shocked to learn unsofisticated Americans call it, with an integral (or here perhaps better "left over") bar, might suggest that his acquisition was nearer to 1919 than later. Pre-WWI Schönbach violins would have been "made in Austria“, although tens of thousands were routinely smuggled across the boarder and became German.

I've run across some that were only hollowed out in the visible areas inside. The top in the upper bouts area  was left full thickness. Perhaps this a method of protecting the instrument against destruction while in the hands of a klutzy would-be student.

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59 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

The circumstance that BF’s violin belly was roughly "hogged out“ as I was shocked to learn unsofisticated Americans call it...

We Americans (savages) are not unfond of our deliberate semi-rejection of elitist speaking formats. :)

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2 hours ago, Bill Yacey said:

I've run into more than a few people claiming to have a genuine Stradivarius, and still convinced after pointing out the label says : copy of,  made in Czechoslovakia.

I know what you're implying and I guess I should have expected no less. But you might be interested to know (all things considered) that the OP violin was strung up with a new tailpiece, new strings, and an ill-fitting 1/8 sized bridge cut (sanded) for a different instrument.Through it all, and after countless decades of being in pure darkness, the violin sang once again, and it sang beautifully. The moment I heard the instrument wake up and produce beautiful sound was worth the virtually free price I paid for the very old, very small, very fine violin. I just thought you should really let that sink in before you cast judgment about whether or not my extremely fine violin is an authentic Stradivarius or not. Why else would it say his name inside the instrument? Stradivarius copied himself, so the label saying "copy of" doesn't rule out that Stradivarius made my intensely fine fractional violin.

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Quote

All that glisters is not gold—
Often have you heard that told.
Many a man his life hath sold
But my outside to behold.
Gilded tombs do worms enfold.
Had you been as wise as bold,
Young in limbs, in judgment old,
Your answer had not been inscrolled
Fare you well. Your suit is cold—
Cold, indeed, and labor lost.

-Shakespeare

 

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3 minutes ago, BassClef said:

Through it all, and after countless decades of being in pure darkness, the violin sang once again, and it sang beautifully. The moment I heard the instrument wake up and produce beautiful sound was worth the virtually free price I paid for the very old, very small, very fine violin.

Sounds to me like, besides a luthier, you're in crying need of an audiologist, and an optometrist. :lol:

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