Montagnana Sleeping Beauty cello questions

[JBiggs]

Hello, my name is Jim Biggs, I'm a student in the violin-making program at Indiana University.    I'm starting my first cello, using the Strad poster for the Montagnana Sleeping Beauty.  I have some questions for Maestronet members who've built cellos based on the Sleeping Beauty.

 

1) Scaling off the poster, I get 32.5mm for the top arching and 30 for the back.   I've read the Sleeping Beauty has a lot of distortion in the back and possibly in the top, do  you use these measurements?    

 

2) The high points for both top and back seem to have migrated toward the tailpiece.   Do you center the high points in the middle of the long arch?

 

3) To gain clearance in the wide C-bouts, do you raise the overstand or projection?   What measurements do you use?

 

4) Do you prefer maple or poplar?   What difference do these two woods make to the sound?

 

5) Do you have a preferred bridge type, French or Belgian?   Favorite strings?

 

6) Do you have a Montagnana model that you prefer to the Sleeping Beauty?

 

7) Does anyone know who currently owns the Sleeping Beauty?

 

Any other bits of information regarding this model would be greatly apprecitated.

 

Many thanks, 

 

Jim Biggs

[Jim Bress]

For the first 3 questions, maybe even question 4, I would expect your instructor to provide these answers.  I know that's not helpful, but it's a little disheartening to think that a student in a violin making program needs to consult with the U of MN.  I say that because I would like to attend school when I retire.  (returns to his bench at the back of the MN class). 

-Jim

[jwesol]

2 hours ago, JBiggs said:

Hello, my name is Jim Biggs, I'm a student in the violin-making program at Indiana University.    I'm starting my first cello, using the Strad poster for the Montagnana Sleeping Beauty.  I have some questions for Maestronet members who've built cellos based on the Sleeping Beauty.

 

1) Scaling off the poster, I get 32.5mm for the top arching and 30 for the back.   I've read the Sleeping Beauty has a lot of distortion in the back and possibly in the top, do  you use these measurements?    

 

2) The high points for both top and back seem to have migrated toward the tailpiece.   Do you center the high points in the middle of the long arch?

 

3) To gain clearance in the wide C-bouts, do you raise the overstand or projection?   What measurements do you use?

 

4) Do you prefer maple or poplar?   What difference do these two woods make to the sound?

 

5) Do you have a preferred bridge type, French or Belgian?   Favorite strings?

 

6) Do you have a Montagnana model that you prefer to the Sleeping Beauty?

 

7) Does anyone know who currently owns the Sleeping Beauty?

 

Any other bits of information regarding this model would be greatly apprecitated.

 

Many thanks, 

 

Jim Biggs

Wow, what a survey.... steady...

ad. 1: the back is mainly distorted, and my records show 33 mm for the back and 28 for the belly... I have then to double check my measurements  (or you with your scaling ).

ad. 3: standard bridge height never forces a good player to catch the edges in my view (what is standard height? whatever your university teaches you as standard). I rather lower the tension if the instrument is smaller and flatter.

Recommended reading:

J.Dilworth/R. Hargrave (poster): Awakening the Sleeping Beauty, The Strad, 1993 Oct

J. Dilworth: cello 1740, the Strad, 2005 Dec

Domenico Montagnana "Lauter in Venetia", Cacciatori, Carlson, Neumann

 

Regards

 

Jacek

[David Burgess]

JBiggs, when I started making a "Montagnana" model, the owner of the cello I used for inspiration (former principal of the Philadelphia Orchestra) had experienced serious bow clearance problems, so I made several alterations with that in mind:

Narrowed the width of the C bouts a little bit;

Used an 86mm high neck projection;

Used a 27-29 mm heel overstand, both to reduce the increase in tension from the higher neck projection/taller bridge, and to give more forearm clearance around the rather wide upper bouts when playing in higher positions.

[AtlVcl]

#4  A maple back is widely thought to contribute to a brighter, more penetrating sound, whilst poplar is more warm.  Neither is "better" than the other, just different.  I'd be surprised if the Monty wasn't maple, if only because of it's fame.

#5 No

Succinctly yours,

L.

[Conor Russell]

Be sure to tilt your fingerboard sharply to the bass side to clear the c bout. I've made them with fairly normal 23-24 overstand without problems. As far as I remember I made my fronts 32 and backs 29.

[JBiggs]

David Burgess, jwesol and Conor Russell, thank you for your very helpful information.   David, one more question:  Do you raise your saddle to keep the normal break-over angle?

Many thanks,

Jim

 

[Melvin Goldsmith]

All good advice so far. 

On the other hand. I'd not advise a person of your experience to go with Montagnana...There are just too many pitfalls along the way that you simply will not have the experience to deal with and these Montagnana are not universally loved by players anyway....They can be real dogs. Go for a Strad model and choose something like the Christiani if you want to be funky...re size it digitaly to work best for modern players

[David Burgess]

8 hours ago, JBiggs said:

   David, one more question:  Do you raise your saddle to keep the normal break-over angle?

Many thanks,

Jim

No, I was thinking that the extra neck heel overstand had that covered. Unusually high saddles have a tendency to come unglued, and rock forward. Higher neck outsets come with their own set of problems, but most makers these days are dealing with these by inserting various sorts of reinforcements.

[JBiggs]

Thanks Melvin and David!

 

[Lev Germansky]

On 9/28/2017 at 11:26 PM, David Burgess said:

JBiggs, when I started making a "Montagnana" model, the owner of the cello I used for inspiration (former principal of the Philadelphia Orchestra) had experienced serious bow clearance problems, so I made several alterations with that in mind:

Narrowed the width of the C bouts a little bit;

Used an 86mm high neck projection;

Used a 27-29 mm heel overstand, both to reduce the increase in tension from the higher neck projection/taller bridge, and to give more forearm clearance around the rather wide upper bouts when playing in higher positions.

Dear David,

Thank you for your invaluable insights!

I'm about to start making my first cello based on the "Sleeping Beauty". I traced the model according to o the method described by François Denis. 

If I understand correctly, you made the cello with neck hill at 29 mm on the treble side and 27 on the bass side of the neck. In addition you made the projection some 4-5 mm higher than the average. Could please tell me, what your final bridge height and the string angle were? 

What rib height would you recommend? 

According to the poster it is 123 mm at end pin and 115 and neck root.  

Thank you in advance,

Lev