carl1961

3D Printed Violin Stradivarius

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The technology is seriously interesting and will be disruptive to may industries, however it is to a Strad what a colour photo of the Mona Lisa is to the original.

Tim

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20 minutes ago, TimRobinson said:

The technology is seriously interesting and will be disruptive to may industries, however it is to a Strad what a colour photo of the Mona Lisa is to the original.

Tim

In this case taken with a cheap camera mobile.

I am convinced it is possible to make  nice violinlike (in terms of sound and playability) object with this technology. I am also convinced copying traditional archings made for wood are the completly wrong way to go. There is, until today, no good concept to achive this I heard of and even if, there is a LOT of experiments to be made until the goal is reached to create (and being able to do again) an object that can be directly played from a violinist without great adjustments and can not be identified in a group of good traditional violins by listeners not seeing it. Easy to burn a few lifetimes of work on it. 

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Don Noon   

Played in a super-lively room, and staying mostly on the high strings, almost anything can sound decent.

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ctanzio   
1 hour ago, Don Noon said:

...and staying mostly on the high strings, almost anything can sound decent.

Obviously someone who never heard me attempt tp play on the high strings. :P

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8 hours ago, TimRobinson said:

The technology is seriously interesting and will be disruptive to may industries, however it is to a Strad what a colour photo of the Mona Lisa is to the original.

Tim

Almost word for word exactly the same argument I recall photographers having years ago when home/personal color printers were introduced - very low resolution, very small color gamut and prints looked more like Sunday funnies in the newspaper than photographs. Now, things are a little different. I don't think it is impossible that within 10 to 20 years printed violins could be very competitive at the student to advanced student level. Also think there will always be a market for very high quality hand made violins.

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5 minutes ago, Frank Nichols said:

Almost word for word exactly the same argument I recall photographers having years ago when home/personal color printers were introduced - very low resolution, very small color gamut and prints looked more like Sunday funnies in the newspaper than photographs. Now, things are a little different. I don't think it is impossible that within 10 to 20 years printed violins could be very competitive at the student to advanced student level. Also think there will always be a market for very high quality hand made violins.

Thats something else. You cannot print wood with cell structure with any machine, not within the next couple of years. You need at least (!) different archings. 

 

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7 minutes ago, WorksAsIntended said:

Thats something else. You cannot print wood with cell structure with any machine, not within the next couple of years. You need at least (!) different archings. 

 

You can't print with the 3d texture of a painting on most home color printers either. I don't know if the technology will develop to be able to replicate the cellular structure of wood accurately enough to produce the tonal qualities of wood, but something will be printed and in blind tests it will sound as good as a student violin. We can debate if it is a VSO or a violin, but that will not change the impact it will have on the market. 

Not too long ago CF bows were denigrated because you can't duplicate the qualities of a good wood bow. Now there are excellent CF bows available.

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I happen to own an Arcus S8, one of the better CF bows, but still I would agree that CF is not able to perform like wood when it comes to bows. I prefer wooden bows and what I like about the Arcus are different qualities a wooden bow does not have. Its different. Its like soja milk and cow milk. You can use it for the same and prefer you prefer one or the other, but they are not the same. 

I wrote before that I am convinced it is possible to make a good violinalike object with this technology. 

Printing cell structure will never be able with any plastic. You would need to print molecules, which is nothing possible today and in the close future(I dont trust myself to predict this for the longer future).

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4 minutes ago, WorksAsIntended said:

I happen to own an Arcus S8, one of the better CF bows, but still I would agree that CF is not able to perform like wood when it comes to bows. I prefer wooden bows and what I like about the Arcus are different qualities a wooden bow does not have. Its different. Its like soja milk and cow milk. You can use it for the same and prefer you prefer one or the other, but they are not the same. 

Yup, I agree completely, and I said that there would always be a market for high quality hand made instruments, and I would suggest that unless your bank account is better off than mine, an Arcus S8 is not on the table for students and only a small number of advanced students. My CodaBow diamond on the other hand is a fairly nice bow for learning with. I have heard the "general" consensus at this point is that CF is best up to a couple thousand dollars, beyond that wood still is better. 

So, we seem to mostly agree. 

Some day off in the future the Startrek transporter will be available, at which point you simply transport a Strad and record the transmission, then you can play back the transmission and get a exact (atomic level) duplicate anytime you want one :)
 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Frank Nichols said:

Yup, I agree completely, and I said that there would always be a market for high quality hand made instruments, and I would suggest that unless your bank account is better off than mine, an Arcus S8 is not on the table for students and only a small number of advanced students. My CodaBow diamond on the other hand is a fairly nice bow for learning with. I have heard the "general" consensus at this point is that CF is best up to a couple thousand dollars, beyond that wood still is better. 

So, we seem to mostly agree. 

Some day off in the future the Startrek transporter will be available, at which point you simply transport a Strad and record the transmission, then you can play back the transmission and get a exact (atomic level) duplicate anytime you want one :)

That will destroy the market value :wacko:

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20 minutes ago, WorksAsIntended said:

I happen to own an Arcus S8, one of the better CF bows, but still I would agree that CF is not able to perform like wood when it comes to bows. I prefer wooden bows and what I like about the Arcus are different qualities a wooden bow does not have. Its different. Its like soja milk and cow milk. You can use it for the same and prefer you prefer one or the other, but they are not the same. 

I wrote before that I am convinced it is possible to make a good violinalike object with this technology. 

Printing cell structure will never be able with any plastic. You would need to print molecules, which is nothing possible today and in the close future(I dont trust myself to predict this for the longer future).

You don't have to duplicate the cell structure of wood.  All you have to do is duplicate the area density and area stiffnesses of the plates to get the same vibration modes.

A printed hollow plastic structure with thin surface skins with deep ribs in various directions could mimic wood quite well.

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45 minutes ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

You don't have to duplicate the cell structure of wood.  All you have to do is duplicate the area density and area stiffnesses of the plates to get the same vibration modes.

A printed hollow plastic structure with thin surface skins with deep ribs in various directions could mimic wood quite well.

I agree, I think there are multiple approaches. My point was if there is a market technology tends to advance faster that most of us expect. Change is the real normal. And as change occurs, new change tends for follow faster. The 3D printers are in their infancy now, and are already making real parts in various use cases.

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49 minutes ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

You don't have to duplicate the cell structure of wood.  All you have to do is duplicate the area density and area stiffnesses of the plates to get the same vibration modes.

A printed hollow plastic structure with thin surface skins with deep ribs in various directions could mimic wood quite well.

I dont think so, tbh. Wood is great inhomogenic stuff. Of course the mode of first order can be achieved like that but I highly doubt it for higher orders (allthough I never made any research in measurements or theory about their influence to the outcome). 

I think the aproach to copy the wood exactly is unnecessary. It might be better to do arching/shaping adoptions for the material. What did the CF violin companies do? Did they copy thickness and arching of some Cremonese or adopt it? An actual question, not a rethoric one.  

This is a huge topic and to come to any valid conclusion we need more data. So in the end this is my personal expectation with a bit of foundation but surely the chances of me being wrong here are high. 

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Don Noon   
2 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

You don't have to duplicate the cell structure of wood.  All you have to do is duplicate the area density and area stiffnesses of the plates to get the same vibration modes.

A printed hollow plastic structure with thin surface skins with deep ribs in various directions could mimic wood quite well.

I too disagree, as this is only true for pure bending modes.  With arching, stretching comes into play, with the relevant variable being speed of sound.  That's not going to happen with printed plastic until they start printing carbon.  There's also the issue of damping; again, if you develop printing carbon fiber, maybe you could compete with wood performance-wise.

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Solid cellulose is a pretty stiff material but it isn't very good for violins unless it has a lot of porosity (wood).  Solid thermoplastics aren't very good either unless they are also made with a lot of holes.  The size of the pore holes doesn't make much difference although their shape, orientation, and volume fraction  does.   Extruded thin wall hollow polycarbonate plastic greenhouse glazing has better acoustic properties than spruce wood and with the clear variety you can even grow plants inside your instruments.

3D printing allows these to be adjusted within a body and I wouldn't be surprised someday if synthetic materials will surpass wood in violin applications. The sound characteristics can tailored and will be reproducible.    Violas can also be made to be fire resistant.

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Don Noon   
4 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

Violas can also be made to be fire resistant.

That's pretty sadistic... making violas that are harder to get rid of.

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My comment regarding the relationship between originals and copies needs a bit of unpacking, and I'm sure there are people much better able to do it than me.  Even a really good colour photo of the Mona Lisa is not the same thing as the original, but then it is not meant to be.  It is a copy for different purposes.  When photography became popular there was concern it would kill painting - of course it didn't as it is different.  Artists did and can use the technology of photography to produce art, but it is different to painting.  I'm sure 3D printing will be used to create instruments (and many other things) but they will be different to a traditional violin.  I'm sure there will be great makers with the new technology.

Tim

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carl1961   
1 hour ago, Evan Smith said:

I've always wanted to take on one of those things and see just how good it could be made to sound.

Anyone else sense the spirit?

I thought about trying the violin with 3d carbon fiber,I made 3d printed carbon fiber parts for quadcopters. I have my Home made 3d printer that will print things up to 17 inches and  I have the complete Strad violin stl files to print from,  the thing is HEAT and the violin above in the video, if it get exposed to much heat over 100 degrees it will warp like crazy.

 

 

Capture2.JPG

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16 minutes ago, carl1961 said:

 

if it get exposed to much heat over 100 degrees it will warp like crazy.

Well I guess that leaves me out,, I'm a really Hot player,,it would just turn to a puddle in my arms, and end up just like me,, crazy..

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carl1961   
9 minutes ago, Evan Smith said:

Well I guess that leaves me out,, I'm a really Hot player,,it would just turn to a puddle in my arms, and end up just like me,, crazy..

LOL yes your out of luck, you could make one out of plexiglass or news paper!!

 

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2 hours ago, carl1961 said:

I thought about trying the violin with 3d carbon fiber,I made 3d printed carbon fiber parts for quadcopters. I have my Home made 3d printer that will print things up to 17 inches and  I have the complete Strad violin stl files to print from,  the thing is HEAT and the violin above in the video, if it get exposed to much heat over 100 degrees it will warp like crazy.

 

 

Capture2.JPG

Nice printer. I never made it past my prusa. 

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