another bow

[Greg F.]

This neat bow came my way.  It's regular length but rather light (about 51.5 g without hair).  Silver mounted.  Two-piece heel (one pin for the small piece and two pins for the larger one, pins on the larger are tarnished like either nickel or brass).  No pin that I can find on adjuster.  Old wrap looks like tinsel.  Smallish mortice is a snug fit for eyelet.  Head looks nicely finished and chamfered.  Two screws for underslide.  No batch numbers on slide that I can see, nor on stick.  Round but octagonal part extends beyond wrap somewhat.  Wood has some crosshatching at head (pernambuco?).

Anyway, thoughts and opinions are welcome.  No name anywhere that I can find.

 

 

 

[WorksAsIntended]

Thats pernambuco of good quality. 

I like the carving of the head too. 

[Greg F.]

Thank you for the comments.

I'm hoping that it's a French bow (of course) but if it's just a good German bow that's ok too.

[Conor Russell]

The photos aren't very clear Greg. 

I think it's probably a German student stick.

[Blank face]

Agree that it would be better to clean it a bit and give some focused side views. From what I believe to see it's silver mounted and the 6t photo shows a pin in the adjuster. The ebony of the frog is of the open pore grain which is often seen at French bows, too.

[nathan slobodkin]

This looks like a pretty nice bow. Is the frog Hand made? Look for a knife cut tongue and if the slide is tapered.

Also straight on pictures from the side, bottom and top of the head and frog are really best to help with identification.

[fiddlecollector]

Hard to tell what it is from those angles. But the two screws in the underslide point to German , (a good quality one). Some well known French makers in the 19th century used screws  but i dont think its that old . It does have a French look about it though.

[Greg F.]

Thanks for the comments.  When I get home I'll try to post better pics.

A more general question, were older pernambuco bows often lighter than the modern standard of 60 grams when made (i. e. with original lapping, etc.)?

[WorksAsIntended]

I dont think so, but the variaty of weight seems to be a bit higher than today. 

[fiddlecollector]

1 hour ago, Greg F. said:

Thanks for the comments.  When I get home I'll try to post better pics.

A more general question, were older pernambuco bows often lighter than the modern standard of 60 grams when made (i. e. with original lapping, etc.)?

In answer to your question yes and no. The bow weighs the same but the lapping is usually changed for heavier wire making the overall bow heavier. 54 to 58gms is very common with the original light lapping.  There are still bows that were originally heavy to start with though.

[Greg F.]

Just got back from depositing #2 son at his university town.  I hope these pics might be helpful.

 

 

[Greg F.]

I looked over the adjuster again and thought that I found the pin that Blank face noted.  And then I looked again with a loupe under good light and the pin really isn't there, it's just an unusual spot surround by tarnish

[Greg F.]

So, in summary:

"...pernambuco of good quality. 

I like the carving of the head too. "

"...it's probably a German student stick."

"...point to German , (a good quality one)"

Anyway, it looks nice to me and I will rehair it, etc., as I don't have many silver mounted bows.

 

[fiddlecollector]

It still looks a nice bow, still think German . The toe of the frog is a quite distinctive shape. maybe someone who knows more of German bows might recognise it.

 

[martin swan]

Don't suppose it's branded under the frog? It looks like Nuernberger to me.

[Blank face]

2 hours ago, fiddlecollector said:

It still looks a nice bow, still think German . The toe of the frog is a quite distinctive shape. maybe someone who knows more of German bows might recognise it.

 

It looks in my eyes like a sort of Lupot copy, head and frog, and I'm guessing there were some German makers in the first half of the 20th century working sometimes similar. Hoyers, Prager, Nuernbergers of course, even Pfretzschners and some lesser known.

[Greg F.]

Thank you for the informative replies.  I did a quick check of some pics of Hoyer bows and there were some with similar frogs.  I will check the other makers suggested as well.  Unfortunately, few of the pics online show anything underneath, etc.

[Brad Dorsey]

Otto Hoyer frogs and buttons usually have at least one of a number of easily identifiable characteristics.  I do not see any of these in the pictures you have put up.

[Greg F.]

Brad,

The Hoyer bows I looked at are pictured on the Tarisio site but I can't link directly to any of them.  There are significant differences among those shown, but they are all just side views.  What should one be looking for to identify a Hoyer frog?  I haven't yet checked any bows by the other makers noted above. 

Thanks,

Greg

[fiddlecollector]

I was trying to think where ive seen the slightly distinctive toe and now remember, how about Adolf Schuster??? The head shape wouldnt look out of line for him as well .

Also Herbert Wanka (amusing in English but not Germany) may be worth looking at ,i believe he trained with one of the schusters. His son Christian is a bow maker so maybe send him a email and ask if he recognises anything about the bow. Also i believe Herbert may still be around.

[Greg F.]

40 minutes ago, fiddlecollector said:

I was trying to think where ive seen the slightly distinctive toe and now remember, how about Adolf Schuster??? The head shape wouldnt look out of line for him as well .

Also Herbert Wanka (amusing in English but not Germany) may be worth looking at ,i believe he trained with one of the schusters. His son Christian is a bow maker so maybe send him a email and ask if he recognises anything about the bow. Also i believe Herbert may still be around.

Thanks for the suggestions.  I will do some searching and perhaps make an inquiry or two.

[martin swan]

I think Adolf Schuster has a rather undercut thumb projection, and a more pointy forehead. Certainly the example in Deutsche Bogenmacher is not similar ...

I can't see this bow being much after 1920.

Why not send photos to Klaus Gruenke? I think it's worth it, very solid German bow ...

[Blank face]

Unfortunately I 'm not at home with no access to books etc., but there were some more Hoyer family bow makers beside Otto Pariser. I 've got a very similar frog with Pfretzschner brand (frog only), and guess that there were more workshops producing similar models. Gruenke is always a good idea.

[Greg F.]

I sent an email to Mr. Gruenke and will let you know if he has anything to say.

I enjoy noodling with old bows and here's a no-name one that looked to have good wood.  I added the thumb piece, copper wire and hair.  The tip plate was only half there (I crudely kludged an extra bit onto the tip).   Nothing extraordinary, but if someone has an opinion on the type of wood that would be appreciated.

 

 

[Brad Dorsey]

6 hours ago, Greg F. said:

Brad,...What should one be looking for to identify a Hoyer frog?...

The features that I usually, but not always, see in an Otto Hoyer frog, either singly or in combination are:  1.  Rounded-off long edges and heel, but not rounded as much as is often seen on Vuillaume shop bows.  2.  A thumb projection whose outline slopes obliquely from the main body of the frog to the stick, rather than running parallel to the stick.  3.  A one-piece heel plate with concave edges on the back end.  4.  Small pearl eyes, sometimes surrounded by rings.  5.  Two screws in the underslide.

And most, but not all, Hoyer buttons have narrow ebony bands and silver end caps (no pearl eyes).

The bows are almost always silver-mounted, but I have one with all of the above features that is nickel-mounted.

None of these are subtle features.  You would be able to discern some of them by feel if you were blind.

Here are a couple of pictures of a silver-mounted Otto Hoyer bow that has all the features I have mentioned: