"Mid-1800s, Possibly Austrian" violin, no label

[Zeissica]

I've been meaning for months to take some additional photos of my violin and finally got around to it today. I bought this violin at a yard sale during the mid-1980s and it was in pretty bad shape then. In 2004, Justin Robertson in Albuquerque restored it as best he could, and it has been a nice, playable violin ever since. It has quite a nice, open sound, but does not have the overall volume or projection of the flatter profile instruments. 

Don Robertson has suggested that it is "Probably Austrian, mid-1800s", but it has no label to go on. 

I don't think the neck or the scroll are original to the body, since both appear to have a different varnish. Other than that, I'm not really sure. Thus, my bringing it here to get some additional ideas an opinions on the potential origin of this instrument.

Thanks!

Violin_scroll_front_smjpg

[Blank face]

Actually I think that the scroll is as much interesting as the body - looks like a Prague scroll ca, 1800. Possibly the blackish varnish is a failed touch up only and it's original.

 

[Blank face]

It looks as if there are small remains of a more redbrown varnish at the filled hole under the A peg in the pegbox rear. The dark varnish covers the bushings, what makes it probable that it's a later application. Could you post a detailled photo?

[Zeissica]

Blank, thanks for your thoughts so far - I'll try to get some detailed scroll photos here soon.

[Blank face]

1 hour ago, Zeissica said:

Blank, thanks for your thoughts so far - I'll try to get some detailed scroll photos here soon.

Meanwhile you could take a look also, if the C bout linings are inserted to the blocks, which should be longer in the outer ribs (I'm strongly supposing they are) and if the lower rib is (or once was) made of one piece, as well as give us the length of the back and height of the ribs. (I'm wondering, why Jacob is still quiet, probably he's working out something...)

[Ratcliffiddles]

It looks Bohemian to me too..

 

[jacobsaunders]

1 hour ago, Blank face said:

 (I'm wondering, why Jacob is still quiet, probably he's working out something...)

-

Actually, I was wondering if they realise in Albuquerque just how big 19^th C Austria was. Then I realised that even Mexico was “Austrian” for a while back then: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_I_of_Mexico

 

To the violin; I can't make out from the provided pictures, if it is what I would call “Bohemian”, or more what one could call “Austrian” today. I'm pretty sure that the varnish is manipulated to an extent, and it would originally been of a dark colour

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Blank face]

57 minutes ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

It looks Bohemian to me too..

 

I don't know if your thinking of Bohemian as a Schönbach, a Prague or more South Bohemian/Viennese suburb origin. (Cornerblockology could tell a bit). As neither Mnk nor Mittenwald I agree. The ff and the varnish at the belly give it a certain "spin", but the last could be altered in some way.

Though it all was Austrian in history, I'm not so sure about Mexico (and not Cremonese, but that was in another century).

[GeorgeH]

Except for the scroll, it looks very Klingenthal to me. I even wonder if there used to be a "Hopf" stamp under the button.

[Blank face]

1 hour ago, GeorgeH said:

Except for the scroll, it looks very Klingenthal to me. I even wonder if there used to be a "Hopf" stamp under the button.

 

Yeah, they kept it well hidden now under three pins. Usually this stamps were added later, but why not the other way?

3 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

-

Then I realised that even Mexico was “Austrian” for a while back then: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_I_of_Mexico

 

Maybe you shouldn't talk about it too loud, Austria could be obliged to pay for some wonderful walls now.

[GeorgeH]

1 hour ago, Blank face said:

Yeah, they kept it well hidden now under three pins. Usually this stamps were added later, but why not the other way?

Sure, why not? Pins could have been added later, as pins (particularly ebony pins) often are. The stamp could have been sanded out. There seems to have been a lot of attention paid to the area under the button, and it seems to be slightly flattened.

[Zeissica]

Here are some additional photos and also some measurements.

Length of back is 14" exactly, or 35.6 cm

Width of upper bout is 6-1/2" or 16.5 cm

Width of lower bout is 8-3/32" or 20.6 cm

Width of C bout is 4-5/16" or 11.0 cm

Ribs are 1-1/8" or 2.86 cm

[Blank face]

Now it looks different again. Corner blocks and linings appear to be newer, and it's probably a built on the back instrument. The red-brown colour at the scroll is disappeared.

[Zeissica]

I took these pictures in open shade on two different days, so it's certainly possible the color of the light is affecting the photos. As for the blocks, a fairly heavy restoration was done in 2004 so it is possible the blocks were scraped, repaired or even replaced. 

[Zeissica]

Interesting update. I was in Santa Fe playing with an orchestra on Monday, and the principal cellist asked about my violin. I explained what little I knew about it so far, and he said that it looked like a violin from Klingenthal, and probably late 18th Century. He had been  to region and to some of the workshops there and seemed quite familiar with the features of the instrument. He mentioned that this region was known for making violins "on the back" without a form. He agreed with those here who suggested that the body had been re-varnished, but not the scroll. FWIW He also mentioned that most violins from that region do not have labels. Mine looks like it never had a label.

[Shelbow]

Are the 3 pins near the button a repair or part of the original construction?

I only ask because I have a violin that is very similar in shape and varnish to this and it also has 3 pins marks at the button and one at the bottom.

The one I have has had the F holes repositioned though.