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Operacompany

Nut mitred into neck on 18th cent violin

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I have a violin that looks to be 18th century Italian or German, with pre-Guarneri or "Cremona" arching, perfectly matched top and back, not as high as the really high Baroque arching. The ground for an oil varnish is a slightly golden amber. The neck has space for the nut that includes a slot in the neck, thus requiring a mitred nut design. The violin has a lot of bad repairs on the inside, but the outside is has had very little done. Could this nut design be original and if so, does it indicate any country, school, or maker? 

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I don't exactly know what you mean by "Pre-Guarneri" arching. Andrea Guarneri was born in the early 1600s and was active in the Amati shop for a long time before loing out on his own.

As for the nut, you can't really use those little things, in almost all cases, to determine anything. 

Without pictures, and perhaps even with pictures, there isn't much to be able to assist you with.

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1 hour ago, Operacompany said:

...a mitred nut design...

I doubt that you mean that.  A mitre (or miter) is a joint made by beveling parts to be joined to make a corner, as is often seen at the corners of a picture frame.  Perhaps you mean that the nut sits in a crosswise groove in the neck.

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5 hours ago, Operacompany said:

I have a violin that looks to be 18th century Italian or German, with pre-Guarneri or "Cremona" arching, perfectly matched top and back, not as high as the really high Baroque arching. The ground for an oil varnish is a slightly golden amber. The neck has space for the nut that includes a slot in the neck, thus requiring a mitred nut design. The violin has a lot of bad repairs on the inside, but the outside is has had very little done. Could this nut design be original and if so, does it indicate any country, school, or maker? 

if you had some pictures that will help clear things ;) 

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Thank you for your responses. I will post some pics. Yes my mitre term could be inaccurate, a crossways groove is more correct. I've heard various terms for this style of arching, which does not fan out like Guarneri but goes pretty straight to the bouts like a "tube". Since I've opened the violin there are more individual aspects: the corner blocks are clearly extending more towards the bouts and less towards the middle, and the linings go under pretty far. The neck is set a little farther into the neck block than often seen. The lower rib is one piece. It also appears that the saddle was made its bridge side extend down (in an angled space) into the lower end block. Will post some better pics soon - these were the previous owner's pics.

 

s-l1600-10.jpg

s-l1600.jpg

s-l1600-1.jpg

s-l1600-7.jpg

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From the photos and your description of the inside work it's a second half of the 19th century violin, made in Mittenwald by some homeworkers for a so called Verleger firm (wholesaler). The arching looks rather ordinary IMO, and I remember vaguely that I've seen a similar inserted nut at another instrument from there. Unfortunately the value is very diminished by the badly repaired soundpost crack in the back., not to mention the cracks and loss of varnish at the belly.

BTW, Guarneri del Gesu and Stradivari were both makers of the baroque period, so their archings are nothing but baroque.

 

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Sorry can't agree with Mittenwald...I've never seen a Mittenwald instrument with corners shaped like those you can see here (those  unworn on the back). Also the workmanship of the rounded edges is not typical for what you are suggesting. Better pics may help, which I will get around to soon.

(BTW Many people refer to the arching of a "Baroque violin" as different from the flatter arching of  S. and G.) 

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On 7/25/2017 at 5:16 PM, Operacompany said:

.

(BTW Many people refer to the arching of a "Baroque violin" as different from the flatter arching of  S. and G.) 

Strad and Guarneri ARE Baroque.

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To S - thank you for the pic!  I see the relation...still,  I think the lower ends of the points are more deliberately rounded.  But maybe it is Mittenwald!...Also , does the single piece bottom rib indicate indicate era or place?

To D- Obviously, but in referring to violin design, the new, flatter arching of Stradivari and Guarneri became the basis of later periods. That is why there is a term, Baroque arching - at least in some circles I know, which refers to arching without the innovations of Strad. 

Edited by Operacompany
grammar

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The significance of a one piece bottom rib, is that you can assume that the rib cage was built around an inside form. I wrote an essay on this subject here https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/328919-violin-id/&do=findComment&comment=594080

If something is a common or garden Mittenwald violin or not is a matter of fact, rather than a matter of opinion (even your opinion), as you can work out for yourself here: https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/325798-quiz-for-addie/&do=findComment&comment=538590

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TO JS: Thank you for this and your great info on Mitt vs Mark. Learned a lot from this.  About 4 points out of 7 are true for this violin.  I am almost persuaded that it is Mittenwald Verleger. If so, how could the age be pinned down by less than half a century? I wonder if the red brown oil varnish, with an amber ground says anything about that. As I have restored the edges the pattern looks more and more like a Neuner pattern I have seen.

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