Guido

HOPF - yet again

Recommended Posts

The shoulders don't look square enough and there's no neck graft - not that I know anything.  You'll get rubbish if you don't try before you buy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's my stamp - the O seems a different font, anyone seen that before?  also the heel 'plug' instead of a graft.  Interestingly that means the neck's original.

hopfstamp.JPG

heel.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guido   
8 hours ago, keyboardclass said:

The shoulders don't look square enough and there's no neck graft - not that I know anything.  You'll get rubbish if you don't try before you buy.

I thought the shoulders being not quite as square would be a good sign. Certainly the factory copies would over-exaggerate the model outline.

Some of the fine old ones may have been very square but apparently many were not.

Also, the absence of a neck graft was perfectly fine in my mind given that the violin has received a new neck and scroll at some point. I thought that could well have been the result of a modernisation instead of a neck graft.

No, I will not try before I buy and yes, I'll probably get rubbish. Just wanting to improve my chances by learning as much as possible to spot a nice one :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guido   
6 hours ago, keyboardclass said:

Here's my stamp - the O seems a different font, anyone seen that before?  also the heel 'plug' instead of a graft.  Interestingly that means the neck's original.

Could you post photos of your instrument, not just the two details? And let us know what you think your instrument is... for learning and reference.

Your neck modernisation looks interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I may say so, I think it is the pinnacle of pointlessness, putting up dozens of grotty violins with a Hopf stamp, in the hope of divining any rhyme or reason out of the exercise. The known and certain facts are fairly sparse: Namely that there were about 50 violin makers with the surname “Hopf”, mostly in the Klingenthal region in the late 18th and 19th century. There were also many many wholesalers of the ubiquitous “Dutzendarbeit” who adopted the name Hopf for various lines of violins that were exported in their tens of thousands to the whole wide world. Instruments in a pure condition, with a plausible label are rare like hens teeth. In general (i.e. not only with Hopf), one would need to know 2 or 3 examples of a particular individual maker, in order to identify something with a moderate degree of confidence, a confidence that is further eroded by the fact that makers worked together in workshops, worked for each other, were related to each other etc. To be able to attribute to one of some 50 or so individual makers, would require an archive of 100 – 150 Hopf violins, all with undisturbed original label, to even scratch the surface of the topic. Ergo, the best one can realisticly do, would be to differentiate between for instance an individually made “Meisterarbeit” ca. 1800, and a cottage industry cheap junky one, made for some parsimonious customer at the end of the 19th C. More “Expertise” than that is, seen by daylight, what the Viennese call “Ornanieren”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GeorgeH   
15 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

More “Expertise” than that is, seen by daylight, what the Viennese call “Ornanieren”

I assume you meant "onanieren." :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

I assume you meant "onanieren." :D

It's more likely a hybrid of OrganisierenB).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can only assist, that after we tried to work out over several pages what was going on with the Hopf myth, nobody should claim "the shoulders not square enough" or "the brand different" and so on. That's not the point in any case. I personally would always prefer any genuine IGS, ICF or Hamm brand, or a perfectly straight on, but nameless single made old Vogtland over any so called "Hopf" model, which highest value is seen in four letters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tried to order the Zoebich book on the Hopf  family but the check out is in German which I don't speak. I can't find USA on the list of countrys in the shipping  adress section. I found American Samoa and American Oziean something. Any hints? This looks like another great little book and I'd like to have it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In every german online bookshop I asked, it was sold out and not available. Maybe if we all ask, they're gonna make a reprint;):

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The name HOPF on an instrument means nothing, it's a sound - boomy and full.  I tried a 'HOPF' setup by a luthier who was asking £3,500 last year.  It wasn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course there really is only one answer.  3 or 4 times a year in London we have 4 major violin auction house sale previews all on the same weekend.  Come over, whether it says HOPF or not, and find one that sounds like a HOPF.  I'll be happy to help.  I know nothing about construction but I can tell a dog when I hear one.  I have four grades: really made out of a tin can, sounds tinny, fairly tinny and good :)  Few meet that last criteria.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guido   

 

22 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

If I may say so, I think it is the pinnacle of pointlessness, putting up dozens of grotty violins with a Hopf stamp, in the hope of divining any rhyme or reason out of the exercise. The known and certain facts are fairly sparse: Namely that there were about 50 violin makers with the surname “Hopf”, mostly in the Klingenthal region in the late 18th and 19th century. There were also many many wholesalers of the ubiquitous “Dutzendarbeit” who adopted the name Hopf for various lines of violins that were exported in their tens of thousands to the whole wide world.

... the best one can realisticly do, would be to differentiate between for instance an individually made “Meisterarbeit” ca. 1800, and a cottage industry cheap junky one, made for some parsimonious customer at the end of the 19th C. More “Expertise” than that is, seen by daylight, what the Viennese call “Ornanieren”

Yes, I agree and said before (sorry for quoting myself):

On ‎10‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 10:30 AM, Guido said:

Yes, I think there are about 50 Hopf family members listed somewhere else. Discerning them will not be practical.

I would simply like to be able to sort the nice ones from the junk. In many cases, that seems to be quite straight forward, black and white. However, to my untrained eye there is a grey area. If your grey area between black and white is a virtual line, then mine is as wide as barn door.

As far as I see one can only look at two criteria, being age and craftsmanship.

It seems that age is the primary factor and in practice all (nice) Hopf violins appear to be attributed from Caspar over David and a couple of others to Carl Friedrich according to where they fit on the timeline.

Some examples look like they could be old enough to pre-date the cottage industry, may have a grafted, modernised or altogether replaced neck and I have to admit that my eye for craftsmanship lacks wanting in some of these cases. So I ask and see if I can learn.

For me it is not as easy as telling a black Markie from a Viennese master when I don't have the benefit of looking at different construction methods.

16 hours ago, keyboardclass said:

Of course there really is only one answer.  3 or 4 times a year in London we have 4 major violin auction house sale previews all on the same weekend.  Come over, whether it says HOPF or not, and find one that sounds like a HOPF.  I'll be happy to help.  I know nothing about construction but I can tell a dog when I hear one.  I have four grades: really made out of a tin can, sounds tinny, fairly tinny and good :)  Few meet that last criteria.

I'd love to do that, but I'm in Australia and don't see myself vising London anytime soon.

I'll probably take a plunge at some point. I hope I can learn more before I do, that's all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Guido said:

 

 I agree and said before

Yes. You were quite right. I was getting a Little „frustrated“ with other individuals, so please excuse me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, keyboardclass said:

Of course there really is only one answer.  3 or 4 times a year in London we have 4 major violin auction house sale previews all on the same weekend.  Come over, whether it says HOPF or not, and find one that sounds like a HOPF.  I'll be happy to help.  I know nothing about construction but I can tell a dog when I hear one.  I have four grades: really made out of a tin can, sounds tinny, fairly tinny and good :)  Few meet that last criteria.

 

1 hour ago, Guido said:

 

 

I'd love to do that, but I'm in Australia and don't see myself vising London anytime soon.

 

Meanwhile I'm always a bit amused about such statements.

With all respect, I guess everybody loves it and is able to do that. Every beginner can try violins at an auction or in a shop and can sort which tone he/she likes most, which less and which not, and everybody is free to name a particular sound Hopf, Antonio Str. or maybe Jack or Jill. One shouldn't make the mistake to confuse a personal taste which is related to a complex system of playing style, education and experience (and possibly the condition of the acoustic papilla) with an universal valid truth.

Some players opinions are more respected than others, and some are more able to give authorative suggestions, that shouldn't be forgotten IMHO.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, keyboardclass said:

We're talking about instruments starting at 500 pounds.  No need for complex systems, something with a tone of quality is easy to spot.

That is only what YOU are talking about. Thickhead

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
carl1961   
5 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

That is only what YOU are talking about. Thickhead

getting a Little „frustrated“ again!! :o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, keyboardclass said:

Knocking my acoustic papilla eh?

Why don't you open your own thread about your “acoustic papilla”, if that is what you are interested in?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, keyboardclass said:

We're talking about instruments starting at 500 pounds.  No need for complex systems, something with a tone of quality is easy to spot.

Sorry to answer to this "tonal quality" remark, this usually leads to the neverending, well known redundant drivel discussions. Won't do it again-_-.

More important: I was under the impression, that we were talking about something real, not the cheap Dutzendarbeiten "starting at 500", and it was exactly this, what the OP was asking for. One of us both must have missed the point completely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The OP posted a cheap ebay 'HOPF' so I assumed less money was no object.  Real bargains are around but I wouldn't dare comment on something real pricey.  Saying that though, I did play a violin I liked the other month at a preview - when I looked at the tag it was starting at £30,000!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10.7.2017 at 3:14 AM, Guido said:

I keep having an eye out for an old authentic Hopf violin.

It's always better to read a bit more of a thread, not only one randomly chosen post.B)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.