Can a violin just die?

[Don Noon]

16 minutes ago, carl stross said:

Might you have a link to your test ? Can't find it with Google.

I can't find much on the Tonerite test, other than a brief summary in this post.  There's a bit more detail in a Violinist.com post (scroll down to July 1) here.

But there was a big long thread on my attempt to make a high-powered, variable frequency version of a bridge vibrator, also with no apparent effect, here.

[Carl Stross]

9 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

I can't find much on the Tonerite test, other than a brief summary in this post.  There's a bit more detail in a Violinist.com post (scroll down to July 1) here.

But there was a big long thread on my attempt to make a high-powered, variable frequency version of a bridge vibrator, also with no apparent effect, here.

How old was the violin you used in the tests ? As exact as possible, if you know.

 

Found it - 2 years.

[Melvin Goldsmith]

3 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Wow, sounds like you've been extraordinarily unlucky!

Three new soundposts? Sometimes, but I try to make sure all that has already taken place, and that the instrument is already dimensionally and sonically stable before it ever goes out the door. Not having done that could be really bad for a maker's reputation, not to mention that of makers in general. If someone buys an instrument because they like the sound, I like it to stay that way, and not need lot of post-purchase dinking around. Seems like a buyer shouldn't be saddled with that.

 

[Melvin Goldsmith]

Exactly!....and this should be the same with newly restored work too

 

[victordriver]

23 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

I can't find much on the Tonerite test, other than a brief summary in this post.  There's a bit more detail in a Violinist.com post (scroll down to July 1) here.

But there was a big long thread on my attempt to make a high-powered, variable frequency version of a bridge vibrator, also with no apparent effect, here.

Don the 'acoustic enhancer' featured in a strad article some time back. I know opinion is divided in the same way that many don't believe that a violin can be woken after long periods of inactivity. My own experience is that I found the e string more responsive after use. But that is all very much a feeling -no science on my part.

[David Burgess]

5 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

so....

Since these devices simulate a violin being played and they are a "complete waste of time," does this also mean that playing a violin does not improve its tone, in your opinion? In your tests?

Some artificial vibration devices can come reasonably close to what a violin is experiencing in playing, and others are way off.

I've experimented with both extremes, including real playing by violinists, and can't say that I've come to any solid conclusions so far.

This study about "playing in" is kind of interesting. It has to do with two fiddles from the same maker, which were judged to be pretty close initially, and still judged to be pretty close, after one had been played a lot, and the other had remained pretty much unused.

http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/reprints/IntaViolin.pdf

[JohnCockburn]

On 22/06/2017 at 2:48 AM, Jeffrey Holmes said:

JC & CS.  Please cease and desist.  Thank you in advance.

Sorry, JH. I was feeling a bit lairy, 

I will behave myself in future. 

 

[Will L]

5 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Wow, sounds like you've been extraordinarily unlucky!

Three new soundposts? Sometimes, but I try to make sure all that has already taken place, and that the instrument is already dimensionally and sonically stable before it ever goes out the door. Not having done that could be really bad for a maker's reputation, not to mention that of makers in general. If someone buys an instrument because they like the sound, I like it to stay that way, and not need lot of post-purchase dinking around. Seems like a buyer shouldn't be saddled with that.

A to the Vuillaume I mentioned, I do consider that unlucky.

As to needing several posts over a short time, that was from Alf, and I'm just quoting him.  If I have misquoted what I remember, I'd be happy to hear from him.  Or perhaps over the years he has figured out ways of making instruments more stable when new.

As to violins changing and dying, like I said: that has been my experience.  And it has been invariable, except with the "plate tuned" violins which I have found rarely get much better in the first place.  (As I wrote above, I believe I remember arguments on Maestronet that musicians just get used to their instruments and think they are getting better;  I reject that as simply wrong.)

I do believe that the longer a maker keeps a violin before selling it the more chance of stability there is once in the hands of the player.  I also believe you may be better at building a stable violin than many others.  And, finally, FWIW, among old instruments of famous makers some violins seem more stable than others.

Since Melvin mentioned restored instruments, Nebel—having put in a new bar, post patch, and reduced a rib for me —told me to give the violin a good 6 months to get back to normal.  Am I not to believe that some work doesn't effect violins for a while, no matter how well it's done?  And that the violin will not be a bit unstable and improve for a while?  

[Carl Stross]

2 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Some artificial vibration devices can come reasonably close to what a violin is experiencing in playing, and others are way off.

 

What about particularly bad players ? 

[Melvin Goldsmith]

 Re the original topic.....What's the violin meant to be worth?  It can be made to play

 

[GeorgeH]

1 hour ago, Will L said:

Since Melvin mentioned restored instruments, Nebel—having put in a new bar, post patch, and reduced a rib for me —told me to give the violin a good 6 months to get back to normal.  Am I not to believe that some work doesn't effect violins for a while, no matter how well it's done?  And that the violin will not be a bit unstable and improve for a while?  

It would seem to me that the wood is going to bend and shape to new stresses over time. But if the sound does change, it is equally likely to get worse as it is to get better. You cannot predict that a sound change, if any, is only going to be for the better.

Which Nebel, by the way?

[Don Noon]

4 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

so....

Since these devices simulate a violin being played and they are a "complete waste of time," does this also mean that playing a violin does not improve its tone, in your opinion? In your tests?

I have tried many, many times to find some change from short-term forced vibration and actual playing, with no positive results.  I have seen many, many changes with TIME (and temperature and humidity), mostly in the first few weeks after stringing up.  I have not yet been dedicated enough to science to build 2 violins and leave one unplayed to see if time alone is the factor.  I suspect that time is the major factor, since a newly-strung fiddle often changes quite markedly overnight, although playing/vibration might make the changes happen a little more quickly.

[David Burgess]

1 hour ago, Melvin Goldsmith said:

 Re the original topic.....What's the violin meant to be worth?  It can be made to play

 

For sure, almost guaranteed, with enough time and money.

[David Burgess]

32 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

I have tried many, many times to find some change from short-term forced vibration and actual playing, with no positive results.  I have seen many, many changes with TIME (and temperature and humidity), mostly in the first few weeks after stringing up.  I have not yet been dedicated enough to science to build 2 violins and leave one unplayed to see if time alone is the factor.  I suspect that time is the major factor, since a newly-strung fiddle often changes quite markedly overnight, although playing/vibration might make the changes happen a little more quickly.

Agreed. Don I have come to pretty much the same conclusions. That's not to say that some others don't have different (and in some cases, well-qualified) impressions.

[Marty Kasprzyk]

41 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

I have tried many, many times to find some change from short-term forced vibration and actual playing, with no positive results.  I have seen many, many changes with TIME (and temperature and humidity), mostly in the first few weeks after stringing up.  I have not yet been dedicated enough to science to build 2 violins and leave one unplayed to see if time alone is the factor.  I suspect that time is the major factor, since a newly-strung fiddle often changes quite markedly overnight, although playing/vibration might make the changes happen a little more quickly.

 

41 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

>>  I have not yet been dedicated enough to science to build 2 violins and leave one unplayed to see if time alone is the factor.  I suspect that time is the major factor, since a newly-strung fiddle often changes quite markedly overnight, although playing/vibration might make the changes happen a little more quickly.

This has already been done:

aging by playing violins.pdf

The Violin Twins 10th Anniversary – Inside the Collection.webarchive

[GeorgeH]

@Don Noon

@David Burgess

It makes sense that the instrument would respond quickly and noticeably from macro-changes in stress (like stringing up or new sound post), but micro-changes (like stress during playing) would not be noticeable or measurable.

[Davide Sora]

8 hours ago, Don Noon said:

I have tried many, many times to find some change from short-term forced vibration and actual playing, with no positive results.  I have seen many, many changes with TIME (and temperature and humidity), mostly in the first few weeks after stringing up.  I have not yet been dedicated enough to science to build 2 violins and leave one unplayed to see if time alone is the factor.  I suspect that time is the major factor, since a newly-strung fiddle often changes quite markedly overnight, although playing/vibration might make the changes happen a little more quickly.

 

I also think the same way, even if I never carried out any scientific test.

I believe that vibrations induce an acceleration of the settling process in the first days after stringing up for the first time, nothing more.

I use an archaic model of vibrator no longer in production, very simple and even not too powerful, coupled with the acoustic speakers of my (archaic) hi fi system.

I use only real music, not strange waveforms (like pink or white noise  as device like Tonerite do) that produce terrible noises, because I believe that making it vibrate with the right intonation has its importance, and I think that in this way it can do at least no harm to the violin.

At most it does not do anything, but I can say that the violin was played by the most famous players (even already deceased)

[Pate Bliss]

Nice violin. I'm jealous of your speaker

[Davide Sora]

[victordriver]

My device doesn't use weird waveforms that I'm aware of. My teacher lent it her orchestra lady friends and it went down well...although I'm not what sure for.

Violinman.co.uk 

 

 

 

 

[rossini]

I fixed one like that for my friend by removing top and remove the base bar and  install a new one . Base bar ware somewhat skinnier than usual and I suspect it was fitted with more than usual spring .... and 5 year old violin got it's voice back even better and still happy with the fix. 

[Will L]

On 6/23/2017 at 4:27 PM, GeorgeH said:

It would seem to me that the wood is going to bend and shape to new stresses over time. But if the sound does change, it is equally likely to get worse as it is to get better. You cannot predict that a sound change, if any, is only going to be for the better.

Which Nebel, by the way?

Hans, who taught at the U of New Hampshire for many years.  His father, I believe was at Wurlitzer before him, or somewhere.  

[feelingfaceform]

On 22.6.2017 at 3:59 PM, WorksAsIntended said:

There a rumors that this happend to a very famous european luthier a couple of times, yet I havent seen it myself so I have no idea if this is true  

Heard the same. Curious if its the same we are thinking of

[martin swan]

It seems to me that anyone who has enjoyed an unusual level of success in a very competitive field will attract unsubstantiated rumours ...

[WorksAsIntended]

If people think it will hurt his reputation, ok. I dont think some anonymous post could do this to him and as I said I never saw it myself.