Can a violin just die?

[victordriver]

I know that this will attract loads of arrows...however...I would in desperation apply a string vibrator (toneright/Accoustic enhancer) and leave overnight/several nights. These products are relatively cheap and hey what have you got to lose if it might waken your violin? I do not sell these things but I confess to having one!!! 

[mood2000]

still there's a chance to survive , like stradivari's violins brought back to the life again , & checked by C.T. scan and then a major repair had done , however ,

check if there is any loose in the internal parts such as bass-bar or the linings or the blocks it could be some open seems inside , and need to retouching / touch-up varnish specially the joints between the edge of the plates and the edge of the ribs , also some times the problem came from the accessories parts , such as ; pegs , tailpiece , end-pin , saddle & nut "must recheck for replacing" . of-course the climate also has a big effect on the violin but there is so many solution to maintain the climate from the temperature and the humidity or the dry weather .

[vathek]

I have a feeling the instrument has been gone over with a fine tooth comb. I will also add that this maker's instruments are played by a lot of people and I would think if this had happened before something would have been heard about it, so I'm assuming that this is perhaps a unique situation.

[GeorgeH]

I wonder if the maker agrees that it has "died" or if he/she thinks it is fine and there's nothing to be fixed (which may be true).

I also wonder what someone who never played or heard it before it died would think if they played it now.

10 hours ago, AtlVcl said:

After a long boat trip, it lost its voice and he lost affection for it.

Yeah, that can happen with anyone. 

[WorksAsIntended]

There a rumors that this happend to a very famous european luthier a couple of times, yet I havent seen it myself so I have no idea if this is true  

[Will L]

Can a violin just die?

I understand the question, and it is a good one.

Sadly, the answer is "yes."  Unfortunately, I assume there can be at least several different reasons.  The big question is if an owner can figure out why and correct things to bring it back.

My horror story was not a new violin but a very seasoned Sebastian Vuillaume which was the best playing instrument I ever had once it seemed to have the post set perfectly.  I never practiced so much in my life because I enjoyed that violin so much.

Then, literally overnight, the violin died.  I didn't panic and waited weeks in hopes it would come back but it never did.  I had it adjusted once more but it remained dead.

What I think happened in my case was that a small weakness developed in the top over the sound-post.  Not enough to be a true crack, but somehow weak enough to effect the violin.  But at the time I didn't have the knowledge or patience to try to solve the problem.

Anyway, IMO, if an instrument dies truly in a matter of hours, that would be my first place to look.  I have also found that just the opening of ribs can deaden or effect the strength of tone, but not to the extent I've been talking about.

[mood2000]

1 hour ago, Will L said:

Can a violin just die?

My horror story was not a new violin but a very seasoned Sebastian Vuillaume which was the best playing instrument I ever had once

Then, literally overnight, the violin died.

============================================= 

i remember a famous saying about death :

there is a French violin made by Honoré Derazey ,
something is written on the ribs ( in Latin language ) 
it says : 

VIVA FUI IN SILVIS
SUM DURA OCCISA
SECURI DUM VIXI TACUI
MORTUA DULCE CANO    

( means ) 

I was alive in the forest
I was cut by the cruel axe
In life I was silent
In "death" I sweetly sing
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

there is nothing impossible , you can find a reputable dealer or some auction houses nearby , then you can ask them for "repair / restoration" in their workshops .

[martin swan]

1 hour ago, mood2000 said:

 

there is nothing impossible , you can find a reputable dealer or some auction houses nearby , then you can ask them for "repair / restoration" in their workshops .

Maybe you should read the thread before commenting!

[Bill Yacey]

I saw in a movie once, a violin die instantly. It was being tortured by a wannabe musician, and some sympathetic soul snatched it from his hands and threw it out into the street in front of a moving truck.

[joerobson]

45 minutes ago, Bill Yacey said:

I saw in a movie once, a violin die instantly. It was being tortured by a wannabe musician, and some sympathetic soul snatched it from his hands and threw it out into the street in front of a moving truck.

However the violin in question seems to be, physically, intact.

[Chris S]

mood2000 said that there is nothing impossible.  And that is fairly true.

Someone earlier in this thread said that a new and longer sound post would probably help 

but I disagree with that.  I believe just the opposite is true.  Too often the top in particular , but

also the back , is stretched out of shape .  The shape is distorted often by successively longer 

sound posts.  Over time the the instrument just loses it's sound,  if it had one in the first place. 

So I suggest take the sound post out . Tension up the strings and fit a new one. Just slightly shorter.  

And in 6 months do it again. Over a period of time, say about a year or two ,  you will gradually  reduce

the distortion in the top.  

 

I have done this and it really does work .  But the shortening should be very gradual .  Don't suddenly 

make the soundpost  much too short or you will end up with problems.  Use your judgement.  

 

So mood2000   ... fair comment

regards.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Chris S
miss spelling

[Michael Appleman]

I witnessed this once.  I've mentioned elsewhere that in 1986, I went "contemporary," when I realized that a couple of new fiddles that a luthier friend had left with me for a couple of months while he was away were actually quite a bit better thant the expensive Italian fiddles I'd been playing. There were two violins, and my brother, also a professional violinist, and I decided to buy them both. Mine turned out to be my main instrument for the next 20 years or so, but the one my brother chose, which at the time I think we both preferred slightly (he's older, so he got first choice), just suddenly "died" a little less than a year later. The maker took it back and made a new top for it. If my memory serves me right, he didn't bother to try any adjusting, he just considerd the top a "failure." I know that at the time he was making his own varnish and was convinced that the ground and varnish had a great effect on sound, but we never discussed any chemical or oxydation processes on the wood. . 

[Will L]

11 hours ago, Chris S said:

mood2000 said that there is nothing impossible.  And that is fairly true.

Someone earlier in this thread said that a new and longer sound post would probably help 

but I disagree with that.  I believe just the opposite is true.  Too often the top in particular , but

also the back , is stretched out of shape .

One thing I am sure of is that brand new violins get better and better for a while then often die rather quickly.  I have had plenty of examples and they all go through the same process.  I'm not arguing with your ideas as to why, Chris.  

However,  no less a maker than Gregg Alf once told me that he and Curtin (at the time) would sometimes put three posts in a new violin within the first year.  I assume that not only length differences may have been involved, but also the fit.

So, point being:  certainly SOMETHING is going on, whatever it is in the early lives of violins.  

However, I did take one violin in my life and simply not touch the adjustment or post.  It went through the process, but eventually came back!  Without doing anything.  I still haven't touched it even 20 years later.  It isn't a great playing instrument, but it continues to slowly improve whether played or not.

Not being much of a maker or experimenter, I'm only offering this one anecdote in case a REAL maker can gain something from the information.  Any way you look at it it is a complicated problem.

I seem to remember that I got an argument about new violins "dying" some time ago on MN, but I stand by my own experiences as a player and owner of at least 25+ new violins over the years.

[David Burgess]

45 minutes ago, Will L said:

One thing I am sure of is that brand new violins get better and better for a while then often die rather quickly.  I have had plenty of examples and they all go through the same process.  I'm not arguing with your ideas as to why, Chris.  

However,  no less a maker than Gregg Alf once told me that he and Curtin (at the time) would sometimes put three posts in a new violin within the first year.  I assume that not only length differences may have been involved, but also the fit.

 

Wow, sounds like you've been extraordinarily unlucky!

Three new soundposts? Sometimes, but I try to make sure all that has already taken place, and that the instrument is already dimensionally and sonically stable before it ever goes out the door. Not having done that could be really bad for a maker's reputation, not to mention that of makers in general. If someone buys an instrument because they like the sound, I like it to stay that way, and not need lot of post-purchase dinking around. Seems like a buyer shouldn't be saddled with that.

[Roger Hill]

Out of curiosity, why do we not build new violins with a thin (say) 1" diameter maple disk inlaid in the top cross grain covering the sound post area, or even harden the spruce with a series of pinholes filled with hide glue or (god forbid, cyanoacrylate)?  Hope this isn't too far off track.

[Carl Stross]

11 minutes ago, Roger Hill said:

Out of curiosity, why do we not build new violins with a thin (say) 1" diameter maple disk inlaid in the top cross grain covering the sound post area, 

I think some makers do this. I knew one who did it more excessively - he placed maple strips/inlays in the corners, lower/upper blocks and sound post areas.  

[WorksAsIntended]

I think I remember Mr Burgess writing he leaves it a bit thicker there to make it more reliable. 

[Carl Stross]

22 hours ago, Will L said:

 

Then, literally overnight, the violin died.  I didn't panic and waited weeks in hopes it would come back but it never did.  I had it adjusted once more but it remained dead.

What I think happened in my case was that a small weakness developed in the top over the sound-post.  Not enough to be a true crack, but somehow weak enough to effect the violin.  But at the time I didn't have the knowledge or patience to try to solve the problem.

 

I remember somebody having a violin with a sound post patch on top. He claimed the violin had a variable tone being some days good and some days "dead". I'd be curious if some of our restorers here have seen something like that and how they figured it out.

[Don Noon]

On 6/22/2017 at 3:53 AM, victordriver said:

I know that this will attract loads of arrows...however...I would in desperation apply a string vibrator (toneright/Accoustic enhancer) and leave overnight/several nights. These products are relatively cheap and hey what have you got to lose if it might waken your violin? I do not sell these things but I confess to having one!!! 

Nobody seems to be responding to this, so...

Complete waste of time, IMO.  And IMT (in my tests).

[David Burgess]

33 minutes ago, WorksAsIntended said:

I think I remember Mr Burgess writing he leaves it a bit thicker there to make it more reliable. 

I do, and last time I talked to Sam Z, that's what he was doing too.

A few makers do put a glued-on veneer patch under the soundpost. I haven't run across one who put it in cross-grain (as suggested by Roger Hill), but cross-grain wood can contribute stresses of its own, as wood expands and contracts with varying moisture content, and the rates can be quite different, depending on the grain orientation.

[Don Noon]

47 minutes ago, Roger Hill said:

Out of curiosity, why do we not build new violins with a thin (say) 1" diameter maple disk inlaid in the top cross grain covering the sound post area...

 

31 minutes ago, carl stross said:

I think some makers do this. I knew one who did it more excessively - he placed maple strips/inlays in the corners, lower/upper blocks and sound post areas.  

I'm one, although the maple pad is less than 1" diameter.  Mostly to avoid dinging up the inside surface by the soundpost, rather than any tonal reason.

[Carl Stross]

24 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

 

Complete waste of time, IMO.  And IMT (in my tests).

Might you have a link to your test ? Can't find it with Google.

[GeorgeH]

28 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

Complete waste of time, IMO.  And IMT (in my tests).

so....

Since these devices simulate a violin being played and they are a "complete waste of time," does this also mean that playing a violin does not improve its tone, in your opinion? In your tests?

[WorksAsIntended]

Not every violin needs to be played to sound good imo. Beeing tuned up is enough for some at least. 

[Carl Stross]

6 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

so....

Since these devices simulate a violin being played and they are a "complete waste of time," does this also mean that playing a violin does not improve its tone, in your opinion? In your tests?

Careful.. Can of worms.