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It's time to quit finding things to do in preparation and start the actual making. So, I thought I would move to this area to post questions and progress on making #1 instead of cluttering the other area. (It feels VERY pretentious of me to be in this area!)

Step one, I hope I am finished with this drawing, it has dragged out long enough for sure. I got side tracked for a few days when the shop decided it was time for the roof to start leaking, and I spent a while up on the roof hopefully trying make sure that doesn't happen again. I assume a leaky roof in the rainy season is not a good combination for violin parts laying around the shop :) 

The .png is for viewing and I don't think they will print to scale correctly. The PDF's are 1::1 scale and for printing with no scaling on "most" printers (I hope, it works on my Laser printer).

Lots of adjustments and corrections (many redrawing) suggested by Davide Sora, Addie and David Beard for catching problems in the previous version and suggesting corrections and providing insights. I have learn a lot in making this drawing and I am certain there is much left to learn about the form. This is intended to be symmetrical, I could not figure out how to reconcile all the measurements by "copying" the theStrad poster with the original asymmetry.

It is time to put blade to wood and get something done, I will start making my template this afternoon.

59465641d59ab_MessiahNeckDetails.thumb.png.ffa0432872c632c26c9373e476581d78.pngMessiah Neck Details.ai.pdf

 

 

Edited by FrankNichols
Making the neck profile shapes "less weird" and fixing a few minor issues

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29 minutes ago, JohnCockburn said:

neck cross section template looks a bit weird/wrong.

I will check it again, It is the Fingerboard and Neck combined. I am not sure it is useful, but I put in on to help me visualize what the combination is supposed to look like.

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Check the 5.5 mm nut spacing.  

  Just in case, you may need this - from the center of the nut measure towards the E string proposed slot 8mm.  Make that your E string slot and work your way back in 5.5 mm increments for the other string locations.  

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1 hour ago, uncle duke said:

Check the 5.5 mm nut spacing.  

  Just in case, you may need this - from the center of the nut measure towards the E string proposed slot 8mm.  Make that your E string slot and work your way back in 5.5 mm increments for the other string locations.  

Thank you, I will add a nut view to cover that. I was just going to use the Making The Violin instructions on the net for the nut because the procedure is more than a few steps., but I think it would help to have that here. I plan to print this and laminate it an keep it on the bench. I am debating printing at 2x scale to make it easier to see for my old eyes.

Edit: If you meant the nut width, on the poster it is 4.5mm, but I read here that modern is wider. Several sources sources said 5.5 mm and Strobel said 6 mm. I am tending to go with Strobel ONLY when I can't find other sources or there is a really good reason. 

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21 hours ago, JohnCockburn said:

neck cross section template looks a bit weird/wrong.

Okay, I have been chastised! Yes, it is weird and wrong - sigh. There I go again, thinking anything is trivial on a Violin! I will put up an update tonight or tomorrow with corrected neck/fingerboard drawings. And I am adding a separate drawing just for the FB. A little research on my "numbers" above showed they are a serious over simplification of the FB design, which indirectly affects the neck. 

Thank you John for pointing that out to me. One of the problems I have as a noob is that when I look at something I have drawn, I don't know intuitively, based on experience, if it looks right or wrong, so I have to be very careful that the numbers all work, and compare the look to photographs where possible. In this case, I thought the FB was a simple cone with straight sides, and the neck was a simple oval - silly me :)

Update coming!

Frank

EDIT: BTW, for those of you scratching your head and trying to figure out why I am spending so much time on this when I could just buy a book or use a poster - this error is exactly the reason, because I don't understand who the violin is supposed to be made. By drawing it, I am getting sort of a preflight practice run to the building, where I find mistaken assumptions and have to think about and learn about the rationale for the design instead of just trying to carve something out following a template.

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Frank you can be proud of the work you've done keep it up! By the time you get your 1st done you'll know way more about how things are supposed to look and where you can improve on # 2 that's part of the evolution of learning to build fiddles. If crafting/building and making of things is limited thus far in your life then get building and practicing those skills. Keep posting!

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On 6/15/2017 at 9:55 AM, JohnCockburn said:

neck cross section template looks a bit weird/wrong.

I updated the drawings at the top to hopefully be "less weird" :)

Let me know if these look closer!

Thank you!

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1. If I understand what I have read here correctly the Fingerboard "should be" concave both on the length axis (scoop) and width axis (??) while the concavity on the width is very small (unspecified?). Is that correct? 

2. I understand the scoop is deeper on the base side than the treble side?

3. The scoop on the underside of the fingerboard starts 142 mm from the top/nut end - according to the "MakingTheViolin" website - that would put it starting 5 mm after the lower end of the neck by my dimensions - does that sound correct? (With the edges of the scooping being 3mm.)

4. There seems to also be differences on the FB being symmetrical (both edges the same thickness) or asymmetrical (one edge thicker - see my detail drawing) with the thickness ranging from 4.5 to 7 depending of player/maker preferences - is that a fair statement? And would my choice of 5.5 and 4.7 be a "reasonable" compromise for the asymmetrical crowd? :)

Once I understand this a bit more I will put up some fingerboard templates and details.

Thanks for any insights on this, I really appreciate the education I am getting here.

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Do you know about the fingerboard resonance? Called the B0 resonance? If you carve out the scoop to standard dimensions, the resonance won't always be the same every time, because of differing strength/density of the Ebony.  Some people believe in matching the B0 to A0. Well, not matching exactly, but having it near A0. For your first violin, though, it is probably better just to carve to standard dimensions.    See here:::http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~jw12/JW PDFs/A0_B0.pdf

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15 minutes ago, violins88 said:

Do you know about the fingerboard resonance? Called the B0 resonance? If you carve out the scoop to standard dimensions, the resonance won't always be the same every time, because of differing strength/density of the Ebony.  Some people believe in matching the B0 to A0. Well, not matching exactly, but having it near A0. For your first violin, though, it is probably better just to carve to standard dimensions.    See here:::http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~jw12/JW PDFs/A0_B0.pdf

Wow! Great stuff, that is exactly the kind of information I love learning. I really don't like just rote learning, following a pattern and crossing my fingers. Thank you very much, I will definitely be reading all I can find on that too before finishing my fingerboard drawing...

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MANFIO   
3 hours ago, violins88 said:

I hope you don't get paralysis by analysis.  Just make that first violin.

As soon as I looked at the drawings I imagined I would not be able to carve a scroll again!!!!

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Do most/any of you keep two sets of chisels? I just finished two benches for my shop that took a lot of dado's and mortises, and hammering on the chisels was really brutal on those beautiful cutting edges I have labored to put on them. I was thinking that maybe one set for pushing and one for hammering... ???

 

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I absolutely have a set for heavy construction / skut work..... that said I take care of them and keep a good edge on them..... even skut work goes better with an edge.

Other chisels and gouges will never see a mallet.....

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Don Noon   
4 hours ago, Frank Nichols said:

Do most/any of you keep two sets of chisels?

Yep... the good set is in one drawer, and there's another drawer for the "other stuff" that just seems to accumulate over time, and useful for things like scraping gaskets off of engine parts.

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1 hour ago, Don Noon said:

Yep... the good set is in one drawer, and there's another drawer for the "other stuff" that just seems to accumulate over time, and useful for things like scraping gaskets off of engine parts.

:)

Yeah, the more I think about it, the less I like the way those edges looked after a couple hours of hammering them through that sappy 100 yard old yellow pine. That was not so much hard as "tough" going and I had to clean the accumulated sap off the chisel with acetone frequently... I think I will be ordering another set of chisels to use for the violins and cellos.

Anyway, I learned a lot about patience and slowing down and getting two pieces of wood carved to fit each other. Lots of fun!

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Finally after a significant amount of life happening, back to work in the shop, it is coming along and I hope to actually start working on the violin #1 tomorrow. Here is my practice bench in the background and my main work bench in the foreground. The door is covered with multiple layers of plastic to keep the AC in and the heat out and let the dogs come and go, it was that or spend $100 on an extra large dog door :)

This (and the practice bench in the background) are my first attempts at wood working, so, I learned a lot and will be replacing the legs on this one, I am not happy with the mortises and tensions.

The wood is about 90% used/upcycled/reclaimed or what ever the current name is, the rest is new, A LOT of time was spent making sure I got every nail and screw out before using it.


I am making a tail vice to add to the bench - it is sitting on the right side. The eclipse vise (blue) is awesome - really well made!IMG_2426.thumb.jpg.eefca5e2ec55ba61275e486ce7b790b6.jpgIMG_2432.thumb.jpg.8ff0e1078edf0d2e0cab4013a87118ea.jpg

IMG_2424.thumb.jpg.0021cf1e6ed19bcd39514449f9e362e3.jpg

 

 

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Looks nice Frank. My first two woodworking projects (not including a picnic table 20 years prior) were also my workbenches. Yours are nicer looking. I didn't put skirts (lack of a better term) on my benches.  It seems like they would limit your clamping surfaces.  Do you use them for clamping long flat boards along the side of the bench?

-Jim

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5 minutes ago, Jim Bress said:

Looks nice Frank. My first two woodworking projects (not including a picnic table 20 years prior) were also my workbenches. Yours are nicer looking. I didn't put skirts (lack of a better term) on my benches.  It seems like they would limit your clamping surfaces.  Do you use them for clamping long flat boards along the side of the bench?

-Jim

Thanks for the kind words. 

I haven't used the bench much yet, so, I am trusting in Paul Sellers - of course he doesn't make violins and cellos either :) (I think he made one, or helped with one once). The skirts are mainly for structural stability (if I understand correctly), but I also have used them for clamping vertically - for instance in planing the edge of a long board. The ends are open so, clamping there is available, and I am figuring out if and how to use dogs on the surface. (as well as a tail vise on one end.) I hope to have enough clamping options, but I am certainly open to the idea of making another bench if during the process of making #1 this one proves to be awkward. 

The important thing to me, is that I finally have a bench, and if life will leave me alone for a couple weeks I will make my practice neck (making one from Popular first) for #1, so I can get some feedback and then proceed to actually making the real thing (out of my spruce block that is sitting on a shelf waiting patiently for me.)!

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I use a tail vise an dogs all the time for planing. I don't think you'll regret adding them to the mix. 

I saved the scroll for last because it scared me the most. Turns out to be my favorite part. 

-Jim 

 

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