Pylorius

French or Fake French?

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You are more likely to get a substantive response if you put up a straight-on picture showing a side view of the scroll and another showing the back of the peg box.  Strait-on views are more useful for this purpose than the oblique view you have shown.

Check out:

 

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For those of us that "know nothing" but are eager to learn, it would also help if you mentioned why your impression is J.T.L. or German. It looks like a scroll to me, what details or characteristics do you see that give you an impression of origin?

 

Thanks,

Frank

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Pylorius   
15 minutes ago, FrankNichols said:

For those of us that "know nothing" but are eager to learn, it would also help if you mentioned why your impression is J.T.L. or German. It looks like a scroll to me, what details or characteristics do you see that give you an impression of origin?

 

Thanks,

Frank

I don't have any better photo's, I just purchased it so I could have a more modern type of violin, I've only had my old baroque set-up violin to play so far...

jtl1.JPG

jtl2.JPG

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15 hours ago, Pylorius said:

I was wondering, based just on his scroll has the look of a cheaper J.T.L., or perhaps  German ?

jtl3.JPG

German to my eye ...

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Pylorius   
10 hours ago, FrankNichols said:

For those of us that "know nothing" but are eager to learn, it would also help if you mentioned why your impression is J.T.L. or German. It looks like a scroll to me, what details or characteristics do you see that give you an impression of origin?

 

Thanks,

Frank

To me it looks like a 1920's Mittenwald violin, based on the similarity of the scrolls I have seen on others, also, the varnish appears similar to some similar era Mittenwalders,, The corners look a bit pointy, so I had thought perhaps a cheaper JTL, but they made them for so long, and I am not familiar with variations over the years for a Medio Fino, I will hopefully find out more about the bow, which is also one of the reasons I purchased the violin as well (besides being cheap)...

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Should you wish to speculate if anything is from Mittenwald, you may use the Mittenwald half of this “check list”. https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/325798-quiz-for-addie/&do=findComment&comment=538590 For 3rd. parties, it would seem rash and meaningless to “have a guess” from oblique out of focus pictures.

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GeorgeH   

Looking at the scroll alone, the only feature that suggests French to me is the flat eyes.

Everything else appears German, and the delta at the end of the spine suggests Markneukirchen rather than Mittenwald.

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6 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

For 3rd. parties, it would seem rash and meaningless to “have a guess” from oblique out of focus pictures.

  3rd party describes me perfectly but I don't see German influence anywhere other than the cinnamon rolly looking scroll.  The soundholes appear to be cut by a Frenchman or other than a Germanic hand imo but the pics are sorta not good enough but good enough for today.  Hopefully it sounds good enough for Pylorius. 

A Markneukirchen inside form or outside form?  I can't tell. 

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Addie   
10 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

For 3rd. parties, it would seem rash and meaningless to “have a guess” from oblique out of focus pictures.

In terms of a public forum, could you please define second- and third-parties?  That's assuming that the original poster is the first party.

:huh:

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First Party: Seller of violin

Second Party: Prospective purchaser of violin

Third Party: Not involved individual giving it a nosey butcher's over the fence;)

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Pylorius   
12 hours ago, uncle duke said:

  3rd party describes me perfectly but I don't see German influence anywhere other than the cinnamon rolly looking scroll.  The soundholes appear to be cut by a Frenchman or other than a Germanic hand imo but the pics are sorta not good enough but good enough for today.  Hopefully it sounds good enough for Pylorius. 

A Markneukirchen inside form or outside form?  I can't tell. 

It was a certain precision to the FF's that made me consider France, also, the eye of the scroll seems to have a bit more detail than I have seen on German violins, I tried to find a matching eye and could not find a distinct match. Anyway, I should have it by Saturday, so I have reviewed the checklist of making techniques... 

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sospiri   
On ‎14‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 2:39 PM, uncle duke said:

    The soundholes appear to be cut by a Frenchman or other than a Germanic hand imo

What did his moustache look like?

I don't see why it wouldn't be a French instrument with a German neck?

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It's always stunning how big the heap, or mountain, of stereotypes is, about nationality (of hands) and ethnic (scroll) details etc. etc.pp, which gives people reasons to believe what they would like to believe in violin regards and other matters.

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GeorgeH   
2 minutes ago, Blank face said:

It's always stunning how big the heap, or mountain, of stereotypes is, about nationality (of hands) and ethnic (scroll) details etc. etc.pp, which gives people reasons to believe what they would like to believe in violin regards and other matters.

First Impression + Confirmation Bias = Hard to change opinion

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11 minutes ago, Blank face said:

It's always stunning how big the heap, or mountain, of stereotypes is, about nationality (of hands) and ethnic (scroll) details etc. etc.pp, which gives people reasons to believe what they would like to believe in violin regards and other matters.

What I could do one day is shade over with pencil and paper the ff holes of a fine English made violin I have here.  Now I have the pattern.  Next step would be to hunt up the old violin shop/place a co-worker of mine used to hang around after work.  They were neighbors of sorts.  I would have to ask the shop owner where so and so is to be found these days.

If I were to ever run in to him again and he still had interest in violin making and had some piece of spruce laying around I'd give him the pattern and mention to do his cutting whenever without me being able to tell afterwards that he did the cutting.

  He's a good dude, 100% German and I'm sure he would do his best to copy/cut the pattern exactly, assuming of course he'd choose to do so in the first place.  Then I'd have a look and see afterwards.  Can it be done or not?  Is this German or English?  Do I know what I'm looking at here at Maestronet or not?  

 If the aforementioned shop owner just happens to frequent MN these days and happens to remember the guitar player/painter who used to live above his shop some time ago I might have something to go on to be able to proceed with what I just mentioned I'd do.  

 

I did think to myself earlier about the stereotyping.  I mean no harm or prejudice towards anyone, really.   

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Addie   
10 hours ago, martin swan said:

None of my money is on France...!

Could you speak up?  I can't hear you through the fence.  I think Blank Face is mowing his lawn as well...

10jpeg.jpg

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OK then, at higher volume this time ...

third party opinion. oblique small photos notwithstanding, entirely guesswork etc. the violin looks 100% MK/Sch to me

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Addie   
3 minutes ago, martin swan said:

OK then, at higher volume this time ...

third party opinion. oblique small photos notwithstanding, entirely guesswork etc. the violin looks 100% MK/Sch to me

OK, got it.  :)

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Not much to hear, but with his eyes the mower is seeing (while zooming in the front photo) scroll flutings stopping at around 7 o'clock and a blackened inner pegbox, that should usually be enough.

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