What is the correct sound of a Excellent Violin?

[Don Noon]

39 minutes ago, sospiri said:

This last idea is one that I have been pondering since the early 80s. But I later dismissed it as too unpredictable until I read about Michelman's research with linseed oil and its effect on tone.

As with most recommendations, there are two important questions:

1)  Are the promoter's instruments known to be exceptional, or at least very good? (not that I am aware of)

2)  Are the promoter's methods widely (or at all) used by the recognized best makers of today?  (not that I am aware of)

Of course, those two questions assume the goal is a result similar to what is accepted as best by the general standards of today.  Your taste in tone or performance can be vastly different, and then I guess you just have to try stuff and judge for yourself.  That also has some importance for you little tone/performance bet... who and how to judge.

[sospiri]

1 hour ago, Don Noon said:

As with most recommendations, there are two important questions:

1)  Are the promoter's instruments known to be exceptional, or at least very good? (not that I am aware of)

2)  Are the promoter's methods widely (or at all) used by the recognized best makers of today?  (not that I am aware of)

Of course, those two questions assume the goal is a result similar to what is accepted as best by the general standards of today.  Your taste in tone or performance can be vastly different, and then I guess you just have to try stuff and judge for yourself.  That also has some importance for you little tone/performance bet... who and how to judge.

I'm not interested in Michelman's obsessive quest for the actual Cremonese varnish because I think his efforts in this regard were somewhat over wrought. I'm only interested in the tonal value of  Michelman's research on the linseed oil preparation pre-varnishing  which I believe was based on information from others over the course of the preceding two centuries. I think his book was first published in 1946?

Another reason why I started this is because I had a crudely made violin from the 1920s which had an amazing tone. I assumed at first it was the arching, but quickly dismissed this. Then I suspected it had been treated with linseed oil. Subsequent experiments achieve this same tone or very similar. And subsequent addition of more linseed oil on this instrument didn't change the tone.

I actually tried it cautiously with no idea how much linseed oil to use. The results were so encouraging that I kept going with other violins. The same result every time. An 'old' violin sound which is noticeable very quickly. It's certainly something worth trying.

The old idea about some old violins improving with age and playing would fit with this treatment. This won't happen with a French polished instrument or another quick drying varnish.

If the linseed oil is drying or polymerising very slowly over many years, then this would fit with the 'improves with age' hypothesis.

It would be interesting to compare a violin before and after with this treatment and over a course of time.

The fact that my best sounding (to my ears, and I've got good ears) violin can give me this much pleasure despite being cheap a bit heavy at 480 grams for 360mm and not so pretty, tells me I'm onto something very interesting. The amount of time I have put into this over the last 7 months has been very rewarding, I'm playing as I gradually work in the oil over several days initially and gradually over several weeks, so I have a working method that others might not be able to reproduce? This might explain why others have failed with this method, their attempst may have been clumsy and hurried?

Perhaps I have something worth marketing? I will consider this, but I'm in no hurry to give up my day job.

I

[Carl Stross]

7 hours ago, sospiri said:

100 bucks it is. I was thinking about how? I think I should record several of my violins and y'all have to guess the price of each one. That would be fun for you and even more fun for me. And Carl can critique my playing, which will be even more fun.

 

Carl never critiques one's playing on MN. VMs and enthusiasts are not usually pro players and even if they were they don't have the time or disposition to hold onto technique at the cost of some tiring hours every day. All playing used as illustration here is good for me.

Play something simple, not too fast and if possible over 2 octaves or more . No need to show me you learned the beginning of Bruch or Tch. Record in mono with an omni mic at 2-3m from the instrument or with a cardio turned the other way round. That way we'll hear what is really happening not what the mic wants us to.

Looking forward to this.

[sospiri]

14 hours ago, carl stross said:

Carl never critiques one's playing on MN. VMs and enthusiasts are not usually pro players and even if they were they don't have the time or disposition to hold onto technique at the cost of some tiring hours every day. All playing used as illustration here is good for me.

Play something simple, not too fast and if possible over 2 octaves or more . No need to show me you learned the beginning of Bruch or Tch. Record in mono with an omni mic at 2-3m from the instrument or with a cardio turned the other way round. That way we'll hear what is really happening not what the mic wants us to.

Looking forward to this.

Where do I get these mics from and how much do they cost etc?

I have been playing the beginning of Bruch and Tch in my head today. After 40 years of playing I'm starting to get somewhere. I used to have playing fads where I would practice guitar a lot, I mean a lot, but these fads would last six weeks and then the enthusiasm would die down. So I figured I needed to find a way to keep the enthusiasm and I think it's simple; just don't try to hard or force yourself to practice. That way, no aversion or frustration develops, only more enthusiasm. I think young people try to hard at just about everything. It's counter productive.

You can critique as much as you want though Carl, if I'm trying to climb every mountain, I need to listen to the route guides.

[Carl Stross]

11 hours ago, sospiri said:

Where do I get these mics from and how much do they cost etc?

I have been playing the beginning of Bruch and Tch in my head today. After 40 years of playing I'm starting to get somewhere. I used to have playing fads where I would practice guitar a lot, I mean a lot, but these fads would last six weeks and then the enthusiasm would die down. So I figured I needed to find a way to keep the enthusiasm and I think it's simple; just don't try to hard or force yourself to practice. That way, no aversion or frustration develops, only more enthusiasm. I think young people try to hard at just about everything. It's counter productive.

You can critique as much as you want though Carl, if I'm trying to climb every mountain, I need to listen to the route guides.

To keep complications to a minimum, something similar to this would be in order :

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Zoom-H1-Handy-Recorder-Matte/dp/B0144JHW4E/ref=pd_sim_23_4?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=P65RNAWGQK610HFSHG1K

Some are better and some are worse but if you don't like it you can send it back. I've heard stuff recorded with them and was perfectly usable. 

Play something easy and revealing. Bruch or Tch have quirks which will tax you unless you really practice - no point. And if you play them badly you diminish the perceived quality of your violin. That's because we carry in our ears the sound of those played on Strads by top soloists. Some easier Bach or something else easy like the 1st Mov from Haendel's 3rd Sonata, stuff you can repeat reliably on another violin. 

 

 

[John_London]

While awaiting the recordings, I would be delighted if someone could answer a related question: how can I tell whether a violin is excellent? Leave aside student violins with obvious flaws. Supposing I order a violin. Hypothetically, it looks lovely, good materials, fairly even sound across the strings, requires a bit of work to make it speak especially on gut, though it will respond quickly and will speak even near the top of the finergerboard, with a nice core to the sound which can be pleasing, though not loud, under the ear. What does an expert look for, in order to know whether it it is a fine instrument with the potential to mature into an excllent violin?

[Don Noon]

1 hour ago, John_London said:

What does an expert look for, in order to know whether it it is a fine instrument with the potential to mature into an excllent violin?

Something that they learn over several decades of experience and exposure to fine instruments... my guess, anyway.  I've been trying to learn that for only a decade or so, and it's still fairly mysterious.  Richness, response, variable tone, cushion, and other things have been thrown around as meaning something, but it doesn't mean anything if you don't know what they mean in the first place.

[David Beard]

There are at least two version: how a dealer sees it, and how a player sees it.

And probably there simply is no way to evaluate such things except by resorting to expert opinion.

 

On the other hand, if you're getting an instrument for your own use, how much do perceptions beyond your own really matter, and perhaps coplayers and teachers?

 

[John_London]

Thanks for those attempts to answer what seems unanswerable! The points make sense to me, apart from the fact I don't know what 'cushion' would mean.

I have heard live one of the world's greatest violinists struggle to make a one of the world's greatest violins sound more than mediocre. Where does that leave the amateur evaluating a new instrument?

It leaves me suspicious of a violin which seems to easy to play. Suspicious of own judgement if a violin seems difficult to play. Fearing that the amateur, and possibly the professional, who is evaluating an instrument is engaged in an exercise in self-deception.

 

8 hours ago, Don Noon said:

but it doesn't mean anything if you don't know what they mean in the first place.

 

3 hours ago, David Beard said:

On the other hand, if you're getting an instrument for your own use, how much do perceptions beyond your own really matter, and perhaps coplayers and teachers?

 

 

And perceptions of audiences, if a professional soloist (which I am not) selects an instrument 'for own use'. I can sift out most student instruments, though frankly I think some could sound adequate in professional solo use. Beyond that, I am lost. There are days when I wonder how much of it is real.

[David Beard]

It isn't real to most people. It's slap you in the face real to others.  And it's not directly about the audience. What's real is value in the market, and a player's personal experience with the instrument. 

Don't worry about the differences that aren't yet real for you in your playing an instrument. You're lucky.  You won't need to spend crazy money to be satisfied. And don't pay over market.  That way if someday the differences start slapping you in the face, you can trade in.

[GeorgeH]

11 hours ago, John_London said:

how can I tell whether a violin is excellent?

What David B. said! You may not care if a violin is excellent in 7th position (yet), but this is critical to others.

Play it yourself; listen to others play it; and play it in comparison to other violins. Ask for other's honest opinions. 

When you play a violin for a while, you get used to the sound, which is why playing it in comparison to others is so important.

Unless you have a lot of experience, determining that violin is an "excellent" violin in the absence of direct comparison to other violins can be very difficult. This is why honest dealers who have a good inventory that you can use to compare different violins are so useful. But inventories of good and fine violins are expensive to maintain, and that is reflected in dealer prices (as it should be).

P.S. I am not a dealer.