What is the correct sound of a Excellent Violin?

[Carl Stross]

34 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

The mechanics differ little from everyone else's, but the drama can be more vivid and entertaining, the technique is occasionally superior, and more of it happens on stage.

Well, yes - that's about it.  Though I'd say the kind of drama a past her sell by date soprano can produce is simply in a different class.

[John_London]

Quote

What is the correct sound of a Excellent Violin?

Like the sound of a handful of very expensive violins mostly made by Stradivarius. And why are those star instruments so expensive? Because in the hands of some violinists, the expensive Strads acheve the correct sound of an excellent violin.

Some people in the violin world not only believe this circular logic, they spend and make considerable sums of money on the assumption that it is useful.

[Violadamore]

30 minutes ago, carl stross said:

Well, yes - that's about it.  Though I'd say the kind of drama a past her sell by date soprano can produce is simply in a different class.

That's a bit outside the current thread, but could be the stuff of either a Fingerboard topic, or a successful dissertation in Primate Behavior that goes on to make the best-seller lists.

[Carl Stross]

5 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

That's a bit outside the current thread, but could be the stuff of either a Fingerboard topic, or a successful dissertation in Primate Behavior that goes on to make the best-seller lists.

I can't say... Not many monkeys blame an orchestra for three days for them not being able to scream as well as last year. But I'll check on this and get back to you.

[Carl Stross]

45 minutes ago, John_London said:

1. Like the sound of a handful of very expensive violins mostly made by Stradivarius. And why are those star instruments so expensive? Because in the hands of some violinists, the expensive Strads acheve the correct sound of an excellent violin.

2. Some people in the violin world not only believe this circular logic, they spend and make considerable sums of money on the assumption that it is useful.

1. Sure.

2. Well, it seems to be a warranted assumption. You could convince me otherwise though by picking up your violin and doing the Brahms concerto with the VPO. Which I don't think you can. The part with circular logic here is you and that doesn't help anybody - it weakens the case for new violins. That's what the Fritzers don't get. Invariably, the opinions against Strads come from people with no experience whatsoever in the kind of occupation where the Strad tool is prevalent, in other words from people with zero credibility amongst Strad users. But let me simplify this for you. Let's say next month you are to appear in Brahms with Top German orchestra, say the VPO. You can play your Todd Carrot violin or you can borrow/loan/steal etc a famous Strad, a violin on which that concert was successfully played hundreds of times maybe. A violin you can hear on great recordings, the workhorse of some Great for many years. 

Which one are you going to pick ? Given that your career hangs on the success of that concert. And the next concert. And the next one..And so on... 

[Rue]

I think I have a Todd Carrot...it's been mislabeled through...

Those Czechs are sneaky...

[sospiri]

20 hours ago, carl stross said:

I think you  have great enthusiasm and I truly admire that but I suggest you spend 20-30 years around big orchestras and "famous soloists" to get some hands on experience as to what goes where. Otherwise, it's all an endless speculation. WHO said "any old mitenwald" will do ??? 

I think you're missing the point.

[sospiri]

14 hours ago, carl stross said:

1. Sure.

2. Well, it seems to be a warranted assumption. You could convince me otherwise though by picking up your violin and doing the Brahms concerto with the VPO. Which I don't think you can. The part with circular logic here is you and that doesn't help anybody - it weakens the case for new violins. That's what the Fritzers don't get. Invariably, the opinions against Strads come from people with no experience whatsoever in the kind of occupation where the Strad tool is prevalent, in other words from people with zero credibility amongst Strad users. But let me simplify this for you. Let's say next month you are to appear in Brahms with Top German orchestra, say the VPO. You can play your Todd Carrot violin or you can borrow/loan/steal etc a famous Strad, a violin on which that concert was successfully played hundreds of times maybe. A violin you can hear on great recordings, the workhorse of some Great for many years. 

Which one are you going to pick ? Given that your career hangs on the success of that concert. And the next concert. And the next one..And so on... 

And how long would it take for him or anyone to learn their way around the loaned Strad? Weeks, possibly months?

I too would choose the Strad if I were in that position, why not?

You seem to vacillate between the Strads are better and the Strads are no better points of view? I believe that there is a standard of excellence to aim for which he achieved and many others did too. And he and all of the others did so by standing on the shoulders of giants. The main reasons why Stradivari deserves his reputation are his huge output and consistency in achieving this standard of excellence.

[Dr. Ludwig]

I'm just a retired scientist and wanna-be repairer who is a poorly trained classical guitarist that grew up in house with mother singing opera and playing Rachmaninoff on the piano. I'm just saying everyone's experience (not to mention desires!) is different but I found this discussion highly 'entertaining' while enjoying my TVP and Sauerkraut for lunch. Much Thanks.

Entertaining yes but the postings with information, pointers and knowledge I find here are valuable.

[John_London]

16 hours ago, carl stross said:

1. Sure.

2. Well, it seems to be a warranted assumption. You could convince me otherwise though by picking up your violin and doing the Brahms concerto with the VPO. Which I don't think you can. The part with circular logic here is you and that doesn't help anybody - it weakens the case for new violins. That's what the Fritzers don't get. Invariably, the opinions against Strads come from people with no experience whatsoever in the kind of occupation where the Strad tool is prevalent, in other words from people with zero credibility amongst Strad users. But let me simplify this for you. Let's say next month you are to appear in Brahms with Top German orchestra, say the VPO. You can play your Todd Carrot violin or you can borrow/loan/steal etc a famous Strad, a violin on which that concert was successfully played hundreds of times maybe. A violin you can hear on great recordings, the workhorse of some Great for many years. 

Which one are you going to pick ? Given that your career hangs on the success of that concert. And the next concert. And the next one..And so on... 

The post was meant to be provocative but not in that way: it not to suggest that Cremonse instruments are not the best, which always an interesting discussion and has been had many times. It was to suggest that if anyone ever catches themself in such a circular and hence illogical way of thinking -- the ideal of violin sound is the standard set by good Strads, because Strads get closest to the ideal of violin sound -- (and it would still be an illogical view even you just say the 'the ideal violin' instead of 'violin sound') it is time to take a step back and look a bit more deeply into some of the ideas and motivations which are going on, inlcuding the ideas behind the question 'What is the correct sound of a Excellent Violin?' You may still end up picking a Strad, given the chance.

[Carl Stross]

13 minutes ago, John_London said:

 It was to suggest that if anyone ever catches themself in such a circular and hence illogical way of thinking -- the ideal of violin sound is the standard set by good Strads, because Strads get closest to the ideal of violin sound 

There is nothing illogical there. It looks to you like that because you are not accounting for all the "variables". I could give you an endless number of examples which seem circular but actually, are not. And I'll be quite happy to discuss with you the specifics of this apparent circularity in Strads once I know who you are, how early you started playing violin, what standard you reached, where exactly you feel your Strad lets you down or where exactly you feel it to be clearly superior to other violins, how many of your acquaintances play on Strads at this very moment, how did you like the Soil Strad last time you tried it, which one you felt was better the Le Duc or the King David etc etc etc . I think we should restrain this endless quasi-bashing of Strads and of the people who are actually doing something with them and discuss more profitable things like how to make a violin better than the one we made last week.  

[John_London]

Just now, carl stross said:

There is nothing illogical there.

In a way an advanced player risks being deeper in the fallacy, as well as better placed to evaluate the instrument. If a violin has a particular sound (which mostly I doubt), then anyone who has been brought up hearing the great instruments has had their tastes cultivated to expect a great violin to sound like a Strad or Del Gesu. At a certain level they may be musically open. Nevertheless in the violin world tradition is incredibly strong: note the way violinists proudly trace their lineage back to Auer or whoever, just as the best modern makers often aspire to emulate the Cremonese masters.

Your post continues that line of thinking in way, because it may be summarised as saying that if I am not an expert violinist with good experience on the great Cremonese instruments I am not qualified to judge. I did not claim I was qualified to judge an instrument. I do assert that violinists and makers and dealers (EDIT - not sure whether clarity is good for commerce) can only benefit from logical clarity about the exercise they are engaged upon.

Actually I like the sound of the great violinists on old recordings who played on Strads and DGs also to a man (and a handful of women), and I treasure and respect violin traditions. However, the assumption that a 17th-18th century violin is 'best' is part of a self-reinforcing and closed loop about what violin should do among violinists and of aspirations among makers, which mercifully has not affected bow making. Being frank about the circularity of the argument is an indirect way of attacking the very concept of the 'correct violin sound' in the thread title, as I thought this indirect exploration may be more fun that just saying I don't really buy the idea of a 'correct violin sound'.

 

[GeorgeH]

Barbara Streisand has a beautiful voice. Ella Fitzgerald had a beautiful voice. Whitney Houston had a beautiful voice. Aretha Franklin has a beautiful voice.

All of them, great female voices attached to great musicians, and yet all unique and instantly recognizable.

Just like singers, every violin has a unique voice. Some have better voices than others. No two sound identical.

Great violins, like great singers, have voices that are both individually different and individually great. Selection at this level is a matter of preference, not a matter of fact. The maker and age do not matter. Only the voice of the instrument singing in the hands of the violinist matters.

 

 

 

 

[Carl Stross]

22 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

Barbara Streisand has a beautiful voice. Ella Fitzgerald had a beautiful voice. Whitney Houston had a beautiful voice. Aretha Franklin has a beautiful voice.

All of them, great female voices attached to great musicians, and yet all unique and instantly recognizable.

Just like singers, every violin has a unique voice. Some have better voices than others. No two sound identical.

Great violins, like great singers, have voices that are both individually different and individually great. Selection at this level is a matter of preference, not a matter of fact. The maker and age do not matter. Only the voice of the instrument singing in the hands of the violinist matters.

 

Well, lucky us THEY DON'T SING THE SAME SONG ALL THE TIME. And while all great violins have individual voices they all have more in common than differences. Maybe that means something...

[Carl Stross]

32 minutes ago, John_London said:

In a way an advanced player risks being deeper in the fallacy, as well as better placed to evaluate the instrument. If a violin has a particular sound (which mostly I doubt), then anyone who has been brought up hearing the great instruments has had their tastes cultivated to expect a great violin to sound like a Strad or Del Gesu. At a certain level they may be musically open. Nevertheless in the violin world tradition is incredibly strong: note the way violinists proudly trace their lineage back to Auer or whoever, just as the best modern makers often aspire to emulate the Cremonese masters.

Your post continues that line of thinking in way, because it may be summarised as saying that if I am not an expert violinist with good experience on the great Cremonese instruments I am not qualified to judge. I did not claim I was qualified to judge an instrument. I do assert that violinists and makers and dealers (EDIT - not sure whether clarity is good for commerce) can only benefit from logical clarity about the exercise they are engaged upon.

Actually I like the sound of the great violinists on old recordings who played on Strads and DGs also to a man (and a handful of women), and I treasure and respect violin traditions. However, the assumption that a 17th-18th century violin is 'best' is part of a self-reinforcing and closed loop about what violin should do among violinists and of aspirations among makers, which mercifully has not affected bow making. Being frank about the circularity of the argument is an indirect way of attacking the very concept of the 'correct violin sound' in the thread title, as I thought this indirect exploration may be more fun that just saying I don't really buy the idea of a 'correct violin sound'.

 

Yes, that is my line of thinking albeit not quite that restrictive. There are a few other occupations where you need top notch result out of a violin and that might place your senses on edge and force you to make up your mind. And learn what goes where. 

But while you seem to agree with me that you lack the necessary experience/competency you keep arguing your point of view ( whatever that is ?!) despite lacking competency and experience. My suggestion is that you avail yourself of good Strad, use it and get back to me after a while. Around the time you are starting to discover that anything else seems not quite as good, God knows why, can't quite put my finger on it. That's something which happened to many people and the explanation is simple : magic.

[Nick Allen]

Have we grown complacent with the Strad sound then lol?

[David Burgess]

9 minutes ago, carl stross said:

Yes, that is my line of thinking albeit not quite that restrictive. There are a few other occupations where you need top notch result out of a violin and that might place your senses on edge and force you to make up your mind. And learn what goes where.

It could also be a bit like a famous athlete needing to wear their lucky socks...

[Carl Stross]

2 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

It could also be a bit like a famous athlete needing to wear their lucky socks...

It's not "it could be", it actually "is". I mean, the thing played Brahms 500 times - why take a chance ?  Would you ?? I bet not.

[David Burgess]

6 minutes ago, carl stross said:

It's not "it could be", it actually "is". I mean, the thing played Brahms 500 times - why take a chance ?  Would you ?? I bet not.

I mostly don't wear other people's socks, regardless of how lucky the socks might be.

[WorksAsIntended]

From your postings I wonder how many Strads you own, Carl. Because either your arguments are as invalid as all the others or I should start writing books and hope I earn that kind of money too.

I did have the chance to play (very shortly) violins by del Gesu, Stainer, (much longer) Gagliano, Vuillaume and other Italiens that are very expensive, no Strad yet. I listened to Strads in a couple of concerts. Alltough every single of those violins was outstanding, I played equaly good modern instruments. My teacher plays a very nice Greiner, I played a fantastic looking Hargrave, I owned a Schleske a couple of monthes, I played a von Baehr and currently play a Rittwagen. They were just as outstanding as the old ones. I want to try a Burgess at least as bad as I wish to play a Strad once. 

[Carl Stross]

25 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

I mostly don't wear other people's socks, regardless of how lucky the socks might be.

I see. Mostly...

[David Burgess]

24 minutes ago, WorksAsIntended said:

 I want to try a Burgess at least as bad as I wish to play a Strad once. 

If you have a chance, try one I made while I was wearing Stradivari's socks.

[John_London]

Just now, carl stross said:

Yes, that is my line of thinking albeit not quite that restrictive. There are a few other occupations where you need top notch result out of a violin and that might place your senses on edge and force you to make up your mind. And learn what goes where. 

But while you seem to agree with me that you lack the necessary experience/competency you keep arguing your point of view ( whatever that is ?!) despite lacking competency and experience. My suggestion is that you avail yourself of good Strad, use it and get back to me after a while. Around the time you are starting to discover that anything else seems not quite as good, God knows why, can't quite put my finger on it. That's something which happened to many people and the explanation is simple : magic.

It is true I have not shared my point of view yet, The Gibson Strad does not make Bell sound ike Huberman. This lecture by Sam Zygmunowicz says better than I could some of things I might say. For most uses cases I'd pick a small Japanese car over a Ferrari, and an easy-going partner over a hot and costly beauty queen. Those comments probably says more about my temperament than my point of view.

As for availing myself of a Strad, why not. It may not get me much further forward: put a £100 wine in my glass, when I'm still sober, and I will rate it higher than a £5 wine, supposing I am no better than the poor fools who were unable to discount the price tag on a wine when questioned and brain-scanned  http://www.caltech.edu/news/wine-study-shows-price-influences-perception-1374

I only played one Strad. Was it the nicest instrument I tried? Absolutey. Would it have still been the best if I know it was a German wrkshop fiddle. Absolutely, assuming I am as immune from delusion as I imagine. Was it magical? Absolutely. Demanding and challenging me to give my modest best? Definitely.

[Carl Stross]

26 minutes ago, WorksAsIntended said:

1. From your postings I wonder how many Strads you own, Carl. Because either your arguments are as invalid as all the others or I should start writing books and hope I earn that kind of money too.

2. I did have the chance to play (very shortly) violins by del Gesu, Stainer, (much longer) Gagliano, Vuillaume and other Italiens that are very expensive, no Strad yet. I listened to Strads in a couple of concerts. Alltough every single of those violins was outstanding, I played equaly good modern instruments. My teacher plays a very nice Greiner, I played a fantastic looking Hargrave, I owned a Schleske a couple of monthes, I played a von Baehr and currently play a Rittwagen. They were just as outstanding as the old ones. I want to try a Burgess at least as bad as I wish to play a Strad once. 

1. Not many. What books are you talking about and who's gonna pay for them ?? 

2. That's great stuff but really of no help here. I don't know what you mean by "I did have a chance to play". You may play very nicely or you may barely scratch Twinkle, Twinkle. That matters if I am to consider your argument based on "your playing".  Now, why don't you put some clip on YT with "your playing" so that I can see how valuable your impressions are in that context. That would allow me to understand if you are gifted enough to judge violins - maybe you are half tone deaf and can't tell the difference between a violin and a trumpet.

I'm really looking forward to your opinions/impressions once I qualified them.

[Carl Stross]

2 minutes ago, John_London said:

 

I only played one Strad. Was it the nicest instrument I tried? Absolutey. Would it have still been the best if I know it was a German wrkshop fiddle. Absolutely, assuming I am as immune from delusion as I imagine. Was it magical? Absolutely. Demanding and challenging me to give my modest best? Definitely.

You see ? Eventually to got it AND managed to articulate it nicely. Say Thank you.   It doesn't matter if it's written Strad on it - it must sound right. That after 40 years of scratching it all over the world you discover it was made in Germany doesn't matter. It doesn't make Strads worse or News better. They all stand on their merit.