What is the correct sound of a Excellent Violin?

[carl1961]

37 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

Congratulations, it certainly sounds like a good violin to me.  But how do we know you're not cheating and using a Burgess or something?

Photos?

Thanks Violamore, wish it was a Burgess LOL I cannot afford to buy that !!

very_messy_scales.mp4

[Don Noon]

6 hours ago, Violadamore said:

Congratulations, it certainly sounds like a good violin to me. 

I'd say it sounds more like a fiddle. (but in a good way)

[bkwood]

7 hours ago, carl1961 said:

Thanks bkwook, and all the post, even the ones about the bow it is all good stuff. bkwook I am not what I call a player, I just fiddle with the violin, use to play some 20 years ago in little home country and gospel style bands. just started back 6 months or so when I finally started the desire to carve a violin, at least just one. I posted the sound file not for the style of music but for the tone and sound. attached is my very messy scales, just got in from work, didn't check if violin was in tune, forgot to tighten the bow, cheap china made strings, every rule broken LOL. got some D'ADDARIO HELICORE VIOLIN STRINGS  (copied and pasted that, so not yelling here) coming in the mail tomorrow, so I will put them on and do as Torbjörn Zethelius , Don, David and others said to some one who know how to properly play.

messy scales.mp3

Violadamore, I presumed you yourself are open-minded. Carl, your fiddle sounds good! Sounds like a couple of mine, fiddly for sure.

[Pate Bliss]

1 hour ago, Don Noon said:

I'd say it sounds more like a fiddle. (but in a good way)

It's hard to tell but I think I hear a lot of character in it trying hard to get out.  Metallic can be very good quality if it doesn't just take over.  Can't tell how inward or projecting it is though.  Think I hear some good potential.  Would have wanted to have a closer look at it with an eye toward buying it in former times.

[Pate Bliss]

21 hours ago, WorksAsIntended said:

Do you know who built that violin? I like its g string. 

Not at all sure now but I seem to remember it's 19th c. Italian, maker starts with an 'A', typical price around 100k, and came from Moennig.  I think Michael Darnton replaced the tailpiece and probably did some setup.

[John_London]

On 07/06/2017 at 10:36 AM, carl1961 said:

As I personally have never heard a Strad or any violin that is worth a whole lot, how is a good way to know when you have made a violin that is acceptable? attached is the sound file of what I think is a excellent sounding violin. what level rating would this violin be considered?  the violin player is Chubby Wise. Youtube has many video's of him playing. I could never find out what violin he has.

sample.mp3

Acceptable to whom?

It is not hard to get to hear a Strad if you go to some public concerts, at least if you are near a big city. If you can trust what the volinist tells you the instrument is, which in some cases you can. People talk a lot about how a great Strad can be heard at the back of a hall, yet most violins will get little or no unmiked soloist use. They will be used by students, low-grade amateurs, high-grade amateurs, orchestral players some of whom are good. On top of that, you will find some makers here saying that only a realy good player can spot a great fiddle, or only a really good player can appreciate some of the good fiddles. So no point in making a something as good as the Del Gesu Cannone is in the opinion of some people (I have heard it live, though not played it). If you made one of the world's best violins and it is acceptable to a few excellent violinists and no one else, it is a pointless exercise until you are sufficiently established for those who can appreciate it to find it.

I won't bore you with what is acceptable to an amateur fiddle player and what a one would look for, because you can find people to ask, I am sure.

My personal feeling about your clip is that Chubby Wise can make the instrument do what he wants, and that is a success. My wild guess based on that clip is that instrument is reasonably responsive though may run out of responsiveness for very fast playing; he makes a pleasing dark sound on it, if a little reedy. Projection: can't tell as he is a near a microphone! As far as the range in the recording goes, it sounds even across the strings, which most modern players consider a good thing. However, there is not much to go on as he does not play on e string, does not play in very high positions, and he is not looking for a lot of dynamic range or tone colours. So the violin does the job for the music in the clip, and what more could you want? If you are making an instrument to play the Sibelius concerto you will be making different demands of it, which does not mean Chubby Wise would have made nicer music on it.

I am not a maker. Who knows, if you ask the luthiers whether you have made an acceptable instrument some of them might be more interested in looking at it than hearing it! And to be sure, whilst most of us fiddle players would struggle to distinguish the Messiah Strad (which I have seen in the musuem many times) from a decent mass-produced Chinese or German copy, we do like an instrument which looks nicely made.

 

EDIT - now that clip of messy scales is nice. Hear how quickly and freely the violin speaks. Also even across the strings to the limited extent you can judge in the clip. Again, the clip does not exercise the instrument across a range of pitch. What you do hear is so appealing that it is a fair guess that it would perform well in a more demanding set of tests.

Incidentally yesterday I was listening to a Youtube 'print me a Strad' where a scale is used to compare Betts Strad with a printed copy. The copy is nice. Compare the Strad and say what difference you hear, and which you prefer and why? A lot of it is subjective.

[John_London]

1 hour ago, Don Noon said:

I'd say it sounds more like a fiddle. (but in a good way)

That is probably referring to the same quality as what I would call 'reedy'. I wonder how much a different player and a different setup can change that?

[WorksAsIntended]

35 minutes ago, Bill Merkel said:

Not at all sure now but I seem to remember it's 19th c. Italian, maker starts with an 'A', typical price around 100k, and came from Moennig.  I think Michael Darnton replaced the tailpiece and probably did some setup.

Thanks

[Violadamore]

2 hours ago, Don Noon said:

I'd say it sounds more like a fiddle. (but in a good way)

That's because it's a good violin with a fiddler attached.  Attach a violinist, it'll sound like a violin again.  Attach an expensive violinist, and it'll sound....................

[Carl Stross]

52 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

That's because it's a good violin with a fiddler attached.  Attach a violinist, it'll sound like a violin again.  Attach an expensive violinist, and it'll sound....................

Careful - that's a big opening...

[Violadamore]

28 minutes ago, carl stross said:

Careful - that's a big opening...

.........like a typical V_____a M_e concert recording.   Happy now, Carl?

[Carl Stross]

11 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

.........like a typical V_____a M_e concert recording.   Happy now, Carl?

DEEP RESPECT ! And yes.

[MANFIO]

Violins are judged not only by their sound but also by playability. A good player can give a concert with a bad violin  but he will have to work hard to play it, negotiating notes, points of contact, bow speed and weight, etc. 

Players are looking for something that not only sounds good but is easy to play.

[sospiri]

19 hours ago, Violadamore said:

That's because it's a good violin with a fiddler attached.  Attach a violinist, it'll sound like a violin again.  Attach an expensive violinist, and it'll sound....................

Expensive violinists aren't alowed to play cheap violins in concert, even if they sound as good as this one. They would lose all credibility. Their reputation would be shot, their career over....

[Violadamore]

37 minutes ago, sospiri said:

Expensive violinists aren't alowed to play cheap violins in concert, even if they sound as good as this one. They would lose all credibility. Their reputation would be shot, their career over....

In missing the joke, you've underlined it.  Thanks.   PM Carl, and he can explain this to you. [Shifts tongue to other cheek]

[sospiri]

2 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

In missing the joke, you've underlined it.  Thanks.

I missed the joke?

[Violadamore]

41 minutes ago, MANFIO said:

Violins are judged not only by their sound but also by playability. A good player can give a concert with a bad violin  but he will have to work hard to play it, negotiating notes, points of contact, bow speed and weight, etc. 

Players are looking for something that not only sounds good but is easy to play.

The video of the maker using it suggests it's not difficult to play.

[Carl Stross]

1 hour ago, MANFIO said:

1.  A good player can give a concert with a bad violin  but he will have to work hard to play it, negotiating notes, points of contact, bow speed and weight, etc. 

2. Players are looking for something that not only sounds good but is easy to play.

1. Not at all. This is one of the old wife's tales often repeated by amateurs and never proven. A good player, whatever that is, might put up with a hard to play, inflexible violin. But if it's "bad" he can't make it good. All he can do is make it sound better than I could ( have... ). But that's easy.  This idea that "you give a VSO to Menuhin and it'll sound like Menuhin" is a ton of rubbish. One day, I'll tell you how I know that.

2. SOME players do, some don't. Some players like to feel they put some effort into playing - helps with control.

[WorksAsIntended]

1 hour ago, carl stross said:

1. Not at all. This is one of the old wife's tales often repeated by amateurs and never proven. A good player, whatever that is, might put up with a hard to play, inflexible violin. But if it's "bad" he can't make it good. All he can do is make it sound better than I could ( have... ). But that's easy.  This idea that "you give a VSO to Menuhin and it'll sound like Menuhin" is a ton of rubbish. One day, I'll tell you how I know that.

2. SOME players do, some don't. Some players like to feel they put some effort into playing - helps with control.

Do you know the Riviera recordings with that 2k violin?

It is obviously not a good violin but indeed untrained people seem to not realize it at all. I think its somewhere in the middle. 

I never saw a professional that hit your number two , only amateurs. 

[WorksAsIntended]

3 hours ago, sospiri said:

Expensive violinists aren't alowed to play cheap violins in concert, even if they sound as good as this one. They would lose all credibility. Their reputation would be shot, their career over....

Its interesting to read all those statements about the world of classical from you. They are entertaining. 

[Pate Bliss]

On 6/8/2017 at 3:52 AM, carl1961 said:

Thanks Violamore, wish it was a Burgess LOL I cannot afford to buy that !!

They're pretty rare.  But somehow not as rare as pictures or recordings of them.

What is the alignment of the neck on yours like?  Playability is extremely important and I think a critical thing for playability above about 3rd position is that the curve of the strings are exactly in line with the curve of the fingerboard all the way to the end.

[Carl Stross]

15 minutes ago, Bill Merkel said:

They're pretty rare.  But somehow not as rare as pictures or recordings of them.

What is the alignment of the neck on yours like?  Playability is extremely important and I think a critical thing for playability above about 3rd position is that the curve of the strings are exactly in line with the curve of the fingerboard all the way to the end.

This is an interesting one. When I still played, I was clueless as to the curve of the fingerboard. But I do remember having some German violin on no financial consequence on which playing the Chaconne was particularly comfortable. The fingerboard on this would start almost flat and become rounder progressively reaching what I believe would be "normal" around 4th. Once I started to pay attention, I found that while this is rare it's not completely uncommon. If you have any thoughts on this, I'd be interested. 25 years or so ago when I became aware of the 42mm radius standard it seemed to me a bit much - I preferred a slightly flatter everything. Less elbow work.  

[David Burgess]

2 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

They're pretty rare.  But somehow not as rare as pictures or recordings of them.

 

I try to keep a damper on photos, because there have been issues with people making or selling fakes, and I don't want to make it any easier for them.

Recordings? How about a guy playing some Paganini violin music on the viola?

 

 

[David Burgess]

Or there's a short violin clip here:

http://www.burgessviolins.com/Dicterow.wmv

[Carl Stross]

31 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

I try to keep a damper on photos, because there have been issues with people making or selling fakes, and I don't want to make it any easier for them.

Recordings? How about a guy playing some Paganini violin music on the viola?

 

 

Viola is superb. Borders on too good.