What is the correct sound of a Excellent Violin?

[WorksAsIntended]

1 hour ago, carl stross said:

It makes certain things easier and certain things just plain possible and it doesn't feel like it's working against you.

Absolutely! It feels like a kind of symbiosis, like you would use your own body part.

A bad bow will either be so stiff that you cannot use Sautille or Ricochet or so wobbling that it starts to interfere with your bow movement, in the worst case it will even start jumping. The bow must  immediately leave the string if I want it to and stop to vibrate directly when I put it back on the string. It must not force to take specific tempi. If you think of literature like summer from Vivaldi, a bad bow will force you in his tempo or it will get out of control with notes beeing different long or scratchy, or they just not sound crispy at all.

The center of mass should be on the right place and it should be also powerful at the tip. If it is played forcefully the hair must not touch the wood, although it may get really close to it. 

If I slightly turn a good bow it should allow me to not use all hair and still handle pretty much the same way. It must not have any side forces, although it might be slightly warped. 

On the other hand the sound is very different trying different bows. It must not just be a good bow, it also has to match the violin. I used to play a french bow worth more than my violin for some years but when I got a new violin I sold it and bought a way way cheaper because it was not the right bow in terms of sound anymore. Although the handling was a bit better than my current Grünke. 

[Pate Bliss]

Every player should have a kind of ideal sound in his head that he wants to produce.  That comes from listening to lots of players, and maturity, and growing musically.   Some violins will help him produce that sound more than others will.  Other violins will tell you, no I want to sound like this instead...  And it may turn out that it teaches you some.  Like Don said, old-style bluegrass players like like a certain sound, newgrass probably another, Irishy fiddlers another.

The sound that I like most is the sound that comes from a good orchestra violin section.  Those players typically have a compact sound with a lot of sparkle on the top.  Go to youtube and listen to anything on Nathan Cole's channel for first-rate example of that.  Get a bunch of players like that together and you have a wonderful-sounding violin section!  He's in the L.A. Phil and before that the Chicago Symphony.  Try to hear live the best example of the kind of playing you like and try to burn that sound into your brain so that you can recall it at will.  You will hear language like colors and palettes and so on, which I think is real easy to misunderstand.  I don't want to to sound like I'm playing a different violin from measure to measure.   Besides listening to the best you can live, invest in some good inexpensive industry standard headphones like MDR-7506 and get on youtube with your laptop.

[Rue]

2 hours ago, Nick Allen said:

I've never quite understood what makes a bow considered good. On top of that, no one has ever really adequately explained this, at least on here and in a way that my puny mind can understand. 

I agree that you will know it when you play it.

In a nutshell: it will magically pull a richer sound from your instrument. The balance and weight will feel "right". You will have an "OMG moment" and will want to "Say Yes to the Bow". 

[uncle duke]

6 hours ago, FrankNichols said:

I listen to violin recordings posted here and then read the comments posted here and almost without exception, don't understand what "experts" are saying. 

If you go to the contemporary makers/carl stross scroll down to the bottom of pg 1.  An excellent recording of a good violin can be found.  The tune is even called Frank's sonata.

[Carl Stross]

21 minutes ago, Bill Merkel said:

  I don't want to to sound like I'm playing a different violin from measure to measure.   

Respect.

[carl1961]

3 hours ago, Violadamore said:

Carl, my point is that this particular herd of cats (which appear, IMHO, to be a representative sample of the violin world in total) will never agree on what "good" is to begin with.  Not everyone accepts the  "classical, solo violin concert tradition" as a benchmark, and even among those who do, "good, better, and best" in performances (along with how best to experience them), is a matter of perpetual squabbling.

Give it up.  Endless chasing of one's own tail leads nowhere.

My advice to the OP, if you like Chubby Wise, by all means try to sound like he does.  Some will agree your violin sounds good.  Some won't. Your result will be acceptable.

That was basically what My question was about, the tone and sound that Chubby Wise was getting and was that sound a good example to compare a violin to . Like many Luther's here, while carving a violin and then hearing it play he has to have some goal to reach.

[Carl Stross]

2 minutes ago, carl1961 said:

That was basically what My question was about, the tone and sound that Chubby Wise was getting and was that sound a good example to compare a violin to . Like many Luther's here, while carving a violin and then hearing it play he has to have some goal to reach.

Sorry, now you lost me. What exactly are you asking ?

[WorksAsIntended]

27 minutes ago, Bill Merkel said:

Go to youtube and listen to anything on Nathan Cole's channel for first-rate example of that. 

Do you know who built that violin? I like its g string. 

[carl1961]

3 hours ago, Don Noon said:

Using Chubby Wise as an example of an "excellent violin" demonstrates that a LOT more needs to be understood about this instrument.

First, Chubby Wise is a fiddler, not a violinist, and as such always plays close to a microphone, as well as usually preferring a more bottom-end type of tone.  I couldn't really tell from any images, but my best guess is that he used a large-body old German trade fiddle of low value, probably thinned out.  No professional violinist would ever be caught playing that, from either an aesthetic or performance standpoint.

That's just the tip of the iceberg.  After a decade or two of careful listening to a variety of players and instruments, if you have a good ear, you might get halfway there.  A good player is the other half.

Yes Don, That's what I was wondering, what I call good tone and sound,  is the sound correct. As Always thanks for your straight forward honest answer, that helps a lot. You explained it very well about Chubby Wise playing and fiddle. so my next step is take the violin I made and see what a classic player (maybe a teacher) get out of it and then use that as a better goal to achieve on the next violin. 

[carl1961]

46 minutes ago, Bill Merkel said:

Every player should have a kind of ideal sound in his head that he wants to produce.  That comes from listening to lots of players, and maturity, and growing musically.   Some violins will help him produce that sound more than others will.  Other violins will tell you, no I want to sound like this instead...  And it may turn out that it teaches you some.  Like Don said, old-style bluegrass players like like a certain sound, newgrass probably another, Irishy fiddlers another.

The sound that I like most is the sound that comes from a good orchestra violin section.  Those players typically have a compact sound with a lot of sparkle on the top.  Go to youtube and listen to anything on Nathan Cole's channel for first-rate example of that.  Get a bunch of players like that together and you have a wonderful-sounding violin section!  He's in the L.A. Phil and before that the Chicago Symphony.  Try to hear live the best example of the kind of playing you like and try to burn that sound into your brain so that you can recall it at will.  You will hear language like colors and palettes and so on, which I think is real easy to misunderstand.  I don't want to to sound like I'm playing a different violin from measure to measure.   Besides listening to the best you can live, invest in some good inexpensive industry standard headphones like MDR-7506 and get on youtube with your laptop.

thanks, that what I am from where I sit here, what I am use to hearing is most likely not whats good to use to judge with.. Good advice Bill I will try this

[carl1961]

6 hours ago, David Beard said:

We've plowed this ground quite a bit on Pegbox.

The question is based on the assumption that the violin has some sort of fixed sound of its own that is somehow independent and separable from a player.    I don't much believe that's a true premise.   I player will want to make a wide pallet of different sounds, the better the player the more they will want this.     So I don't think you can really separate the definition of good violins and good violin sound from the players.    I'm inclined to believe that a good violin is one that helps a capable player produce all the colors and movement and articulation they desire, and a great violin helps inspire a player to reach for as even broader pallet than they might have realized they had in them.

 

Torbjörn already said to look to the opinion of good players.    That's really all there is in a sense.    The only way a violin deserves to be called 'great' is if amazing artful players love to play it.   Not to say all players will agree.   But still, I can't imagine any other measure that could really matter. 

 

 

Thanks David , I find my self doing that here too with about 6 different violins that I have.  there is alway the ones you pick up the most and play on. I will find a more professional play to test the violin I have made and go from there at learning what tone to set as a goal .

[Don Noon]

43 minutes ago, carl1961 said:

 so my next step is take the violin I made and see what a classic player (maybe a teacher) get out of it and then use that as a better goal to achieve on the next violin. 

If possible, get the player to compare what you made to the one they play, and have them try to explain what they think the differences are and how important it is to them.

[Violadamore]

4 hours ago, Don Noon said:

Using Chubby Wise as an example of an "excellent violin" demonstrates that a LOT more needs to be understood about this instrument.

First, Chubby Wise is a fiddler, not a violinist, and as such always plays close to a microphone, as well as usually preferring a more bottom-end type of tone.  I couldn't really tell from any images, but my best guess is that he used a large-body old German trade fiddle of low value, probably thinned out.  No professional violinist would ever be caught playing that, from either an aesthetic or performance standpoint.

That's just the tip of the iceberg.  After a decade or two of careful listening to a variety of players and instruments, if you have a good ear, you might get halfway there.  A good player is the other half.

The OP's choice of example warned me early on that we were (yet again!) opening a can of worms while standing on a quagmire.   Have fun mud-wrestling, everyone!  [Sound of popcorn being munched]

[David Burgess]

1 hour ago, Violadamore said:

The OP's choice of example warned me early on that we were (yet again!) opening a can of worms while standing on a quagmire.   Have fun mud-wrestling, everyone!  [Sound of popcorn being munched]

What are your thoughts on Jello or butterscotch pudding wrestling?

[Violadamore]

8 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

What are your thoughts on Jello or butterscotch pudding wrestling?

Maybe if the guys are cute............

[Marty Kasprzyk]

ok.  What is the incorrect sound of an excellent violin?

[FoxMitchell]

14 hours ago, carl1961 said:

No I know for sure it is not electric, that song was recorded most likely 24 years ago

Electric violins have existed since the 1920's.

[Violadamore]

3 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

ok.  What is the incorrect sound of an excellent violin?

There've been some videos posted on The Fingerboard of some soloists whose primary accomplishments seem to be visual rather than acoustic .

[bkwood]

8 hours ago, Violadamore said:

The OP's choice of example warned me early on that we were (yet again!) opening a can of worms while standing on a quagmire.   Have fun mud-wrestling, everyone!  [Sound of popcorn being munched]

No need for that. The fact that the violin can be played in so many styles is a great thing. The fact that many people have a closed mind about it is not. Bluegrass fiddle is usually close mic'd for stage and recording, but in an accoustic setting the sound is still similar. Part of the problem with the original poster is that he might not be a player himself. Is that the case, or did I miss something? It's a lot easier to judge an instrument you make if you can play it. There are a lot of variations between instruments. So, if he enjoys the sound of Chubby Wise (and why not? I do) he should have a bluegrass player play the fiddle. Personally I prefer a good warm low end, but I am not a classical player. (I listen to classical music though). Apparently that is less favored there. That's fine. But being all stuffy about your preferred style is...

Oh well, pass the popcorn.

[David Beard]

12 hours ago, carl stross said:

It makes certain things easier and certain things just plain possible and it doesn't feel like it's working against you.

Different wording of the same idea I believe applies to violins.  However, the 'you' can't be just anyone.  These are elite products for elite players.

[Violadamore]

23 minutes ago, David Beard said:

Different wording of the same idea I believe applies to violins.  However, the 'you' can't be just anyone.  These are elite products for elite players.

All violin players form an "elite".  Some are just more elite than others.

[Violadamore]

47 minutes ago, bkwood said:

No need for that. The fact that the violin can be played in so many styles is a great thing. The fact that many people have a closed mind about it is not. Bluegrass fiddle is usually close mic'd for stage and recording, but in an accoustic setting the sound is still similar. Part of the problem with the original poster is that he might not be a player himself. Is that the case, or did I miss something? It's a lot easier to judge an instrument you make if you can play it. There are a lot of variations between instruments. So, if he enjoys the sound of Chubby Wise (and why not? I do) he should have a bluegrass player play the fiddle. Personally I prefer a good warm low end, but I am not a classical player. (I listen to classical music though). Apparently that is less favored there. That's fine. But being all stuffy about your preferred style is...

Oh well, pass the popcorn.

I wasn't knocking bluegrass.  I was noting that we were in for a high probability of violent disagreement lively discussion.

[jezzupe]

I've made some really excellent violins sound really bad, that's just because they don't understand western music played with Hindi micro tonal accents.

[carl1961]

4 hours ago, bkwood said:

No need for that. The fact that the violin can be played in so many styles is a great thing. The fact that many people have a closed mind about it is not. Bluegrass fiddle is usually close mic'd for stage and recording, but in an accoustic setting the sound is still similar. Part of the problem with the original poster is that he might not be a player himself. Is that the case, or did I miss something? It's a lot easier to judge an instrument you make if you can play it. There are a lot of variations between instruments. So, if he enjoys the sound of Chubby Wise (and why not? I do) he should have a bluegrass player play the fiddle. Personally I prefer a good warm low end, but I am not a classical player. (I listen to classical music though). Apparently that is less favored there. That's fine. But being all stuffy about your preferred style is...

Oh well, pass the popcorn.

Thanks bkwook, and all the post, even the ones about the bow it is all good stuff. bkwook I am not what I call a player, I just fiddle with the violin, use to play some 20 years ago in little home country and gospel style bands. just started back 6 months or so when I finally started the desire to carve a violin, at least just one. I posted the sound file not for the style of music but for the tone and sound. attached is my very messy scales, just got in from work, didn't check if violin was in tune, forgot to tighten the bow, cheap china made strings, every rule broken LOL. got some D'ADDARIO HELICORE VIOLIN STRINGS  (copied and pasted that, so not yelling here) coming in the mail tomorrow, so I will put them on and do as Torbjörn Zethelius , Don, David and others said to some one who know how to properly play.

messy scales.mp3

[Violadamore]

22 minutes ago, carl1961 said:

Thanks bkwook, and all the post, even the ones about the bow it is all good stuff. bkwook I am not what I call a player, I just fiddle with the violin, use to play some 20 years ago in little home country and gospel style bands. just started back 6 months or so when I finally started the desire to carve a violin, at least just one. I posted the sound file not for the style of music but for the tone and sound. attached is my very messy scales, just got in from work, didn't check if violin was in tune, forgot to tighten the bow, cheap china made strings, every rule broken LOL. got some D'ADDARIO HELICORE VIOLIN STRINGS  (copied and pasted that, so not yelling here) coming in the mail tomorrow, so I will put them on and do as Torbjörn Zethelius , Don, David and others said to some one who know how to properly play.

messy scales.mp3

Congratulations, it certainly sounds like a good violin to me.  But how do we know you're not cheating and using a Burgess or something?

Photos?