Sign in to follow this  
Julian Cossmann Cooke

Wanted: CT scans of scrolls

Recommended Posts

In conjunction with a related thread, but in order to get the attention of the cognoscenti among us: does anyone know whether there are quality CT scans of instrument scrolls and if so, a source who might be willing to have them used to make 3D copies that MNers could buy at cost?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Strad 3D project and the Amati Estense Viola Book came with CT scans on DVD.  Do these meet the requirements to print from a 3D copier?  If not, what are the requirements?

-Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jim Bress said:

The Strad 3D project and the Amati Estense Viola Book came with CT scans on DVD.  Do these meet the requirements to print from a 3D copier?  If not, what are the requirements?

-Jim

Jim, that is the $64 question -- since most of us aren't gonna get wealthy doing this.  Maybe I will take those scans to a 3D printing place and see whether they are sufficient.  The scan pics themselves won't be, but the data behind them may.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For 3D printing you need a file in STEP, IGES, or similar, so you need a translator software that convert CAT scan files to 3D.

I had a CAT scan to my neck a few months ago and they gave me a dvd with the 3D files and the slices, but don't know if its a standard file.... 200€ cost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Luis Martins said:

For 3D printing you need a file in STEP, IGES, or similar, so you need a translator software that convert CAT scan files to 3D.

I had a CAT scan to my neck a few months ago and they gave me a dvd with the 3D files and the slices, but don't know if its a standard file.... 200€ cost.

If you had 6-10 people interested, this might be affordable, once you factor in the 3D printing costs themselves.  Maybe not that many.  What would people here be willing to pay for a scroll cast via a 3D printer?  Assuming we're talking about a significant instrument?  Just curious to try to figure out at what point, this becomes a worthwhile venture even if there is no profit margin.  After all, they say the fancy books do not make money...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me it would depend on the scroll.  If the quality of the 3D model was accurate to the scroll, I would pay my part.  An example of a scroll cast or 3D rendering I would want is the Amati "Alard".  Picture from Tarisio.com

Scroll.png.5a3488ab5cc753d3b1d933ebb18a31da.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In #d printing, there is a direct relationship between cost and quality. I do not know what the resolution of the CS's are, but expect you would need the transfer program to "average" the data between steps to smooth it out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For SLS 3D plastic parts I've paid recently 120€ for about the same volume of a scroll. Precision was down to 0,1mm.

I wouldn't mind paying that for the Alard scroll.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be nice to have in the market resin casts of classic instruments, not only the scrolls, but the soundbox too. They would "say" much more than thousand of book pages.

I remember that Francesco Bissolotti carved his scrolls having a "calco in gesso" of a Strad scroll that Sacconi gave to him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, MANFIO said:

It would be nice to have in the market resin casts of classic instruments, not only the scrolls, but the soundbox too. They would "say" much more than thousand of book pages.

I remember that Francesco Bissolotti carved his scrolls having a "calco in gesso" of a Strad scroll that Sacconi gave to him.

Better yet if they came disassembled so we could check all the details on the inside of the box... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, that's the idea. With some technology even the varnish look and colour could be reproduced.

The first guy to do this will make A LOT of money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Luis Martins said:

Better yet if they came disassembled so we could check all the details on the inside of the box... 

That is a fantastic idea, seriously great to be able to take all the blocks, bass bar, top bottom, neck - all the individual pieces apart and examine them, to be able to put them back together and see how they fit - wow, that would be incredible. And the point is it can be done with todays technology, it just would take time and money to create the datasets!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, MANFIO said:

Yes, that's the idea. With some technology even the varnish look and colour could be reproduced.

The first guy to do this will make A LOT of money.

Why stop there - :) With NEW material technology, the parts could be assembled to be played... now there is a scary idea...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I've been researching all of this info about scroll plaster casts and 3D printed scrolls I came across a reference to Guy Harrison.  I contacted him about the possibility of buying something from him.  He gave me permission to share his reply:

Hello Thomas,

 
I have done some 3D printing with scrolls, front and backs in the past.  I’m not selling them at this stage.  
 
To be honest, the quality was far below a good plaster (or plastic resin) cast of a scroll. I think most violin makers would be very unhappy with the results 3D printing.   I find many 3D printing companies promise a lot, but we violin makers demand a quality they are not up to.  There is a lot of hype. But I’m sure as the technology improves and becomes cheaper, we might see more 3D prints available.  This situation reminds me of colour photocopying machines from the 1980’s which were huge, expensive and not very good. Of course, it’s different now. 
 
Sorry I can’t help you with this!
 
Kind regards,
 
Guy Harrison
 
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Thomas Coleman said:

While I've been researching all of this info about scroll plaster casts and 3D printed scrolls I came across a reference to Guy Harrison.  I contacted him about the possibility of buying something from him.  He gave me permission to share his reply:

Hello Thomas,

 
I have done some 3D printing with scrolls, front and backs in the past.  I’m not selling them at this stage.  
 
To be honest, the quality was far below a good plaster (or plastic resin) cast of a scroll. I think most violin makers would be very unhappy with the results 3D printing.   I find many 3D printing companies promise a lot, but we violin makers demand a quality they are not up to.  There is a lot of hype. But I’m sure as the technology improves and becomes cheaper, we might see more 3D prints available.  This situation reminds me of colour photocopying machines from the 1980’s which were huge, expensive and not very good. Of course, it’s different now. 
 
Sorry I can’t help you with this!
 
Kind regards,
 
Guy Harrison
 
 

It isn't quite like color printers from the 80's anymore, the 3d printers exist that can print out very good models, you need a very good dataset, and LOTS of money and LOTS of time. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, FrankNichols said:

It isn't quite like color printers from the 80's anymore, the 3d printers exist that can print out very good models, you need a very good dataset, and LOTS of money and LOTS of time. 

I thought as much Frank.  Which leads me back full circle to plaster casts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, FrankNichols said:

It isn't quite like color printers from the 80's anymore, the 3d printers exist that can print out very good models, you need a very good dataset, and LOTS of money and LOTS of time. 

Have you done any 3D printing yourself?   

I look forward to see the results of this technology as it improves and becomes more affordable.  We'll get there one day I'm sure! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Guy Harrison said:

Have you done any 3D printing yourself?   

I look forward to see the results of this technology as it improves and becomes more affordable.  We'll get there one day I'm sure! 

I'll see if I have a spare sls part in the warehouse and post some pics here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Guy Harrison said:

Have you done any 3D printing yourself?   

I look forward to see the results of this technology as it improves and becomes more affordable.  We'll get there one day I'm sure! 

I have played only marginally with it, I have limited resources to play with toys and am focusing on building up a tool set to make my cello. A couple of my sons, and son-in-laws, are into it in an amateur way and that keeps me up to date on that level.

I follow the technology in general because I see it as part of the idea I have that manufacturing is going to reverse it's global trend and because local - local to the small town/neighborhood! Instead of economy of scale (big factory mass producing a single design of a thing) and then shipping it around the world, I see the next revolution being localized small production of highly customized product (possibly production on on demand instead of on demand inventory control) - localized to the local consumers wants/needs. This results in NO significant shipping (large container ships are a MAJOR source of carbon pollution). 3D printing plays a big role in that.

So, I track the technology, I assume you are aware it is also being used in medical applications - printing body parts for implants - non-organs are not uncommon now, like the cartilage for a nose or ear replacement custom printed to match. Custom joints (knees and hips) are starting to become available for a cost, but even the beginnings of organs like kidneys, and the printing of blood vessel scaffolding to replace/support weak areas (aneurisms), etc...


Amazing stuff is going on, even things like printing jet engines (which require a lot of post printing work :) ):

GE Prints a jet engine and presses the start button!

And yes, I agree we will get to it being commonplace and affordable, but it will take a little while.  Speed is a major cost factor - if you don't mind waiting a week for that screw, it is pretty cheap... if you want it today, the price goes up significantly, if you want a good screw within a couple minutes - well you better be one of the richer people in the world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd go in on a bronze casting of that Alard scroll if anyone wants to make it happen ;)

 is there a place to order cast plaster scrolls or are they generally one-offs?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Guy Harrison said:

This situation reminds me of colour photocopying machines from the 1980’s which were huge, expensive and not very good.

I take back what I said, you are correct, 3d printing is in very much the same stage as color printers then - basically "proof of concept" pushed to market so geeks could play with them :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, FrankNichols said:

I have played only marginally with it, I have limited resources to play with toys and am focusing on building up a tool set to make my cello. A couple of my sons, and son-in-laws, are into it in an amateur way and that keeps me up to date on that level.

I follow the technology in general because I see it as part of the idea I have that manufacturing is going to reverse it's global trend and because local - local to the small town/neighborhood! Instead of economy of scale (big factory mass producing a single design of a thing) and then shipping it around the world, I see the next revolution being localized small production of highly customized product (possibly production on on demand instead of on demand inventory control) - localized to the local consumers wants/needs. This results in NO significant shipping (large container ships are a MAJOR source of carbon pollution). 3D printing plays a big role in that.

So, I track the technology, I assume you are aware it is also being used in medical applications - printing body parts for implants - non-organs are not uncommon now, like the cartilage for a nose or ear replacement custom printed to match. Custom joints (knees and hips) are starting to become available for a cost, but even the beginnings of organs like kidneys, and the printing of blood vessel scaffolding to replace/support weak areas (aneurisms), etc...


Amazing stuff is going on, even things like printing jet engines (which require a lot of post printing work :) ):

GE Prints a jet engine and presses the start button!

And yes, I agree we will get to it being commonplace and affordable, but it will take a little while.  Speed is a major cost factor - if you don't mind waiting a week for that screw, it is pretty cheap... if you want it today, the price goes up significantly, if you want a good screw within a couple minutes - well you better be one of the richer people in the world.

Nice to see the printed jet engine!  There's a lot of potential.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.