messiah Help drawing scroll template

[Moises Neske]

Hello all friends !!!

I would like to thank you all for the excellent information provided here.

I have made a few violins here in Brazil, and I confess, that I am always learning with every post made ...

These photos of the neck are very well didactic.
I remember that it always generates a certain fear - when planning the 04 holes in the violin pegbox... (string A and string D Angle of the strings in the pegbox)....

 

I also like to see the videos of David Sora, I learned and I am learning a lot from all of you ..

my english is by google...  Excuse me for the errors in the words...

Moises.

 

[Luis Martins]

On 2017-6-1 at 3:29 AM, Moises Neske said:

Hello all friends !!!

I would like to thank you all for the excellent information provided here.

I have made a few violins here in Brazil, and I confess, that I am always learning with every post made ...

These photos of the neck are very well didactic.
I remember that it always generates a certain fear - when planning the 04 holes in the violin pegbox... (string A and string D Angle of the strings in the pegbox)....

 

I also like to see the videos of David Sora, I learned and I am learning a lot from all of you ..

my english is by google...  Excuse me for the errors in the words...

Moises.

 

A tradução está muito bem!

Abraço e bem vindo!

[David Beard]

 

 

 

Here you can see that the head and volute are framed in the most typical way for classical work.

 

The overall head is framed by a 1 by 2 proportion, with the under turn placed exactly midway the height.    The Messiah is unusual in how well the camfers are preserved.

 

The volute is framed with the most common 3 by 4 proportion.

 

 

 

[not telling]

Here is an example of scroll templates in progress, and some completed.  First you make indentations in your material (here, thin brass) with an awl, followed with a tiny hole made with a manual pocket drill (cheap from hobby store, see photo). From there you cut it easily with a jeweller's saw.  Then you will use files,  sandpaper sticks,  any means necessary to get the outline perfect as you can. You may be surprised at the precision possible with old technology, and like you say you need to develop these skills anyway.  I hope this helps. Obviously not the only method, but this way you have a permanent physical tool in the end and one option for a way to develop your hand-eye tool skills. Forgive me if any of this was too obvious,  but I wasn't sure if you knew where you are going from computer rendition to actually producing the template. 

[Frank Nichols]

Thank you very much for those images, I m almost done with the computer drawings now (need to finish the profiles for he back of the neck. I knew the next step was to transfer them to meta, I have a roll of aluminum I was going to use, but I wasn't sure how to cut them out. My thought was to use spray glue to glue the prints onto the aluminum and the to cut it on the band saw - but I wasn't sure if my blade was rated for aluminum (had to check that) if not them I was planning to use a coping saw. The idea of using the awl looks pretty easy to follow, I may reconsider my evil ways with the band saw

 

[Frank Nichols]

5 hours ago, David Beard said:

 

 

 

Here you can see that the head and volute are framed in the most typical way for classical work.

 

The overall head is framed by a 1 by 2 proportion, with the under turn placed exactly midway the height.    The Messiah is unusual in how well the camfers are preserved.

 

The volute is framed with the most common 3 by 4 proportion.

 

 

 

Hmm, thanks. I am currently double double checking my drawings and was wondering what kind of sanity checks were available. The scroll on the Messiah is 39.0 x 50.8 which comes out to 0.77 or about 2.6% over .75 - If I  were wanting to be AR over the ratio, should I adjust the size, now would be the time, before it is carved (The numbers I used came from the Strad Poster which I am finding has numerous "mistakes" and drafting errors, sad for a drawing that costs that much.

The other is 50.9 : 100.5 which is 0.506 which is 1.2% error - I assume that is "close enough"?

Thanks,

Frank

[Carl Stross]

37 minutes ago, FrankNichols said:

 My thought was to use spray glue to glue the prints onto the aluminum and the to cut it on the band saw - but I wasn't sure if my blade was rated for aluminum (had to check that) if not them I was planning to use a coping saw.

 

Any blade is "rated for Al". It'll get duller because Al contains hard impurities. That means you should cut as fast ( high feed ) as possible. In my experience, gluing paper on Al or wood does not work - gets torn and pulled by the bandsaw. You could use a water based glue but then paper shrinks and quite a bit.

[Frank Nichols]

1 minute ago, carl stross said:

Any blade is "rated for Al". It'll get duller because Al contains hard impurities. That means you should cut as fast ( high feed ) as possible. In my experience, gluing paper on Al or wood does not work - gets torn and pulled by the bandsaw. You could use a water based glue but then paper shrinks and quite a bit.

So, that sounds like the better solution is to use the awl marks and then either a hand saw (I have a coping, but could get a jewelers, I do't see any real difference in this case)  or the band saw.

Thanks,

Frank

[Carl Stross]

1 minute ago, FrankNichols said:

So, that sounds like the better solution is to use the awl marks and then either a hand saw (I have a coping, but could get a jewelers, I do't see any real difference in this case)  or the band saw.

Thanks,

Frank

Yes, better. An even better solution is to take your computer drawing to a business having a laser/water jet/PCB router and have it cut by them perfectly out of thin steel/Al/fiberglass laminate.

[Frank Nichols]

1 minute ago, carl stross said:

Yes, better. An even better solution is to take your computer drawing to a business having a laser/water jet/PCB router and have it cut by them perfectly out of thin steel/Al/fiberglass laminate.

That would be nice, but I am trying to adhere to the plan of "I have lots of time, not so much money"  And I find taking extra time to cut and refine something like this provides me with the opportunity to examine it more closely and to think about what comes next - sort of an immersion process. 

I had considered taking a Foredom and hooking up some stepper motors and making a poor mans NC router to cut things - however, that would require approval from our CFO (wife unit) and I am over budget already

 

[Carl Stross]

3 minutes ago, FrankNichols said:

That would be nice, but I am trying to adhere to the plan of "I have lots of time, not so much money"  And I find taking extra time to cut and refine something like this provides me with the opportunity to examine it more closely and to think about what comes next - sort of an immersion process. 

I had considered taking a Foredom and hooking up some stepper motors and making a poor mans NC router to cut things - however, that would require approval from our CFO (wife unit) and I am over budget already

 

That's a very valid approach.

[Davide Sora]

My approach :

Flat aluminium sheet 0.8 mm thick (1.0 max)  >  repositionable spray mount adhesive to apply only to aluminum not on paper, let it dry (15 min.) > Carefully apply your paper drawing to the aluminium sheet and press hard with your nail to make it stick well > cut with copysaw with downstrokes only not to lift the paper > finish with files with downstrokes only for same reason > periodically draw your template on transparent paper and overlay it to the original photo or drawing  to figure out where to make changes > measure your template with caliper to see when you match reference measures > take off the paper and clean the glue residues with alcohol > engrave the name of the model, the date of making and your name on the template for reference.

Done!!

 

[Frank Nichols]

6 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

My approach :

Flat aluminium sheet 0.8 mm thick (1.0 max)  >  repositionable spray mount adhesive to apply only to aluminum not on paper, let it dry (15 min.) > Carefully apply your paper drawing to the aluminium sheet and press hard with your nail to make it stick well > cut with copysaw with downstrokes only not to lift the paper > finish with files with downstrokes only for same reason > periodically draw your template on transparent paper and overlay it to the original photo or drawing  to figure out where to make changes > measure your template with caliper to see when you match reference measures > take off the paper and clean the glue residues with alcohol > engrave the name of the model, the date of making and your name on the template for reference.

Done!!

 

Awesome! I have spray mount I use for photographs, so that process works for me. And I am glad you mentioned the down strokes only, a detail I would have not thought of until too late

I need to pick up some tracing paper, that is another good idea. 

Thanks,

Frank

[Frank Nichols]

Okay, I have the "release candidate" drawings ready, checked a few times, but I am terrible at checking my own work. So, if anything jumps out at anyone as "wrong" please drop me a line so I can correct it.

I have Illustrator 2017 CC files and PDFs if anyone wants those I can upload them or IM them for you.

Thanks everyone for your help so far. I am still trying to figure out how to check the contour drawing without having a scroll to check it against, If any one has suggestions on that one, I would appreciate it.

And a special thanks to Davide Sora for his drawing that helped explain a lot too me, much more than was actually showing!

Frank

[Frank Nichols]

The measurement on those drawing are a combination of lots of sources including the Strad Poster - however I have to say I am amazed at all the errors in the strands numbers. 

The numbers to NOT match the poster in cases where the poster documents the asymmetry, I have used averages, or other methods to come to a single value for both sides.

There are a couple other things like the poster shows the nut being 4.5 mm wide, but Davide Sora used 5.5 mm (I think) and Strobel says 6.0 mm, so, I went with 5.5 as a compromise for now, it could change before I start carving.

 

Frank

[Frank Nichols]

Here are the PDFs.

Messiah Violin Scroll and Pegbox.pdf

Nichols #1 neck and scroll annotated.pdf

Nichols #1 neck and scroll template.pdf

violin pegbox back contour.pdf

[uncle duke]

On 5/29/2017 at 0:03 PM, FrankNichols said:

 I don't know how to use chisels, I may practice more than once

Let's work on this first.  What do you have for a chisel, gouge, vise and clamp collection sir?  

[MikeC]

I forgot that I had this.  

 

[Julian Cossmann Cooke]

2 hours ago, FrankNichols said:

Okay, I have the "release candidate" drawings ready, checked a few times, but I am terrible at checking my own work. So, if anything jumps out at anyone as "wrong" please drop me a line so I can correct it.

I have Illustrator 2017 CC files and PDFs if anyone wants those I can upload them or IM them for you.

Thanks everyone for your help so far. I am still trying to figure out how to check the contour drawing without having a scroll to check it against, If any one has suggestions on that one, I would appreciate it.

And a special thanks to Davide Sora for his drawing that helped explain a lot too me, much more than was actually showing!

Frank

You need to open a boutique drawings source with Addie, Frank.  "FranknAddie" or "AddienFrank" if Addie resists the suggestion of a Frankenstein-like collaboration.  This is great stuff and I will squirrel it away.  With an luck, when winter comes and you are looking for vmaking sustenance, I will have the odd nut in storage that I can share with you.

[Frank Nichols]

15 minutes ago, MikeC said:

I forgot that I had this.  

 

That is a nice drawing, thank you for posting. I will study that a while this afternoon. I wish I could draw like that!

 

[Dwight Brown]

Some times I watch Maestro Sora's videos just to feel better.  I love them!

 

DLB

[Luis Martins]

21 minutes ago, Dwight Brown said:

Some times I watch Maestro Sora's videos just to feel better.  I love them!

 

DLB

Me too, there's something soothing in them. I get the feeling that the object is part of the Maestro...

Now I have to go and watch one! Or two!

[Frank Nichols]

This may sound wrong, but I love the fact he doesn't talk during them, he just goes about doing what needs to be done, and I can sit and become totally immersed in what he is doing.

Inspiring.

[Frank Nichols]

7 hours ago, uncle duke said:

Let's work on this first.  What do you have for a chisel, gouge, vise and clamp collection sir?  

I have been practicing on sharpening and carving doodles of nothing on scrap. My tools so far include:

Not the best, but useable from what I can see until I can accumulate better

Woodstock Gouge set of 7 Gouges (I have 2 sets of the woodstock gouges, I re-ground one to have the bevel on the inside instead of outside.)

A Narex set that I really like, cheap but seems to be good steel

I added this 1/8 inch to the Narex set.

I have the 10" version of this (In addition I have another that I designed and built about the same size that will be a tail vise on my bench)

This scraper set

This Carbide Rod for Burnishing tool (Added my own handle)

Awl

Wood Knife

Stones to Sharpen all that

5 Stanley old planes from #4, #5, #7 and a couple odd balls. I have reconditioned these and they work really nice. Never used one before, but got a lot of exercise learning on making my work bench.

(I plan to make a few thumb/palm planes, if they don't work out then I will need to buy them)

Clamps

6ea 3/4 inch pipe clamps

6ea Harbor Freight 36 inch AL Bar clamps
6ea Harbor Freight 24 inch AL Bar clamps
6ea Harbor Freight 12 inch quick release bar clamps
6ea Harbor Freight 6 inch quick release bar clamps

(I plan on making a bunch of spindle clamps as a time filler to be used for gluing on tops and bottoms - different sizes for violin and cello?)

30 or 40 Spring Clamps of various sizes from tiny to very large picked up at flea markets.

2 combo squares:

Compromise "good" one
Cheap Stanley 12 inch combo square - to beat around with.

Various dividers, micrometers, etc...

Power tools:

10 inch Craftsman Drill Press (12 inch? Don't recall, another garage sale item)

10 inch Craftsman bandsaw

10 inch General Machine (HF) wood lathe

6 Inch bench grinder (I don't recall - got it at a garage sale)

I am sure I am forgetting something. I have been collecting slowly over the past 6 months or so, a little each month, and learning how to sharpen etc. I plan to replace the ceap stuff with better stuff as I can. And add what I find I need as I go.

And of course my work bench - 8 foot x 40" x 34 inch version of Paul Sellers with a Vise on the front (above) and one I made on the end. Laminated 2x4 construction with tool trough in the middle)
 

[David Beard]

This is definitely an aside for your purposes, but it's possible to uncover the geometry choices behind a scroll like the Messiah's.

In classical work, the scrolls can be seen as composed of circle arcs with the diameter or radius of each set by proportions.  Each arc then has a determined radius, and a boundary it touches, as well as joining smoothly with the prior arcs.

The designs start from the arc touching or 'bound' by the bottom of the volute's frame.  From this bottom point, and arc swings toward the volute, and in the opposite direction to begin forming the curve under the pegbox.   Sometimes the radii of the arcs on either side of the bottom point are same, but of the arc head under the pegbox has a longer radius, as happens here in the Messiah.

Pretty much there is one arc for every quarter turn, and one boundary for every arc.

 

The first several arcs are bound by the volute's frame, and are sized in proportion to the volute's height, and then the later arcs are sized in proportion to it's length.

Boundaries for the inner arcs are mostly set by dividing prior distance in thirds, but are complicated by the camfer margins are sometimes included and sometimes not;