Beautiful but Quiet

[FoxMitchell]

I have a violin that has the sweetest sound ever! It's silky, warm, sublime, it effortlessly whispers and talks calmly and composed. But when you try to push it to shout a bit, it doesn't.

Basically, it's really easy to play pianissimo, and it's completely at home up to mezzo-forte. But you don't get the satisfaction of a stronger, louder sound on forte or above.

The soundpost was moved all over the place in it before, but anywhere out of the 'default position' hasn't benefited the volume. I have tried Zyex, Tonicas, Vision Solo Titanium and Dominants on it with different results but also none that benefits volume satisfactorily.

Now that I can make my own soundposts I was thinking perhaps experimenting with a different one? Perhaps longer? Perhaps shorter? Maybe I'll make one out of Pernambuco and see what happens!    I also considered maybe the bridge? It's kinda chunky. And I should learn to cut those too sooner or later!

But before I go about that, I was wondering if the wonderful wise folks here would have some suggestions and/or insight on how to improve a good but quiet instrument.

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

I guess that you have reached its maximum potential. 

[Carl Stross]

The usual remedy would be to fit a tighter ( longer ) post. A "chunky" bridge eats power, too. Thin it a bit, see if you STILL like the sound and then thin it some more. Until you don't like the sound no more and you have to make a new one.  But I think there is a fair chance you are describing a violin which basically works well. You should evaluate it played by somebody else while you listen from some distance. Might be in for a surprise.

 

[GeorgeH]

Usually whipping a horse running at full gallop won't make it run faster.

[PASEWICZ]

Before you start experimenting, learn from the past.  I am sure some young, brilliant, enthusiastic violin maker has tried a pernumbucco post in the past. (The 2 bassbars instead of a post touch of genius idea is also already taken.)

[Don Noon]

3 hours ago, FoxMitchell said:

I also considered maybe the bridge? It's kinda chunky.

Depending on how chunky it is, there might be some dB's to gain here.  But like taking the mute off, it will change the tonal character to the higher frequencies.

Other than that, either get another violin or carve a new top from light, stiff wood if you want loud.

[Carl Stross]

1 minute ago, Don Noon said:

Other than that, either get another violin or carve a new top from light, stiff wood if you want loud.

Before that a neckset might be in order. Treating a blocked nose through head amputation is done only in extreme cases - even if successful, patient is not quite the same anymore. 

[Don Noon]

Right, Carl, I missed the idea that the neck projection, if excessively low, would restrict power.  The new top was meant as a semi-joke, like:  If you want your VW microbus to go a lot faster, transplant a turbocharged Porsche engine into it.

[Julian Cossmann Cooke]

I haven't had to deal with this issue before, so take my suggestions/questions -- all no doubt stating the obvious -- with a grain of salt.  OK, maybe two.

Are you describing the sound when you play the instrument or are you sitting, listening as someone else plays it? Someone else here suggested having someone else play it and I second that.

If you want more tension, a taller soundpost comes with some risk unless you know what you are doing.  And I don't mean to suggest that YOU personally lack the appropriate experience.  But too tall and the risk of a top crack increases.

In close competition with soundpost lengthening it sems to me would he increasing the afterlength by shortening the tail gut.  Whether that will give the instrument what you want, I am not sure, but it should increase the pop in the sound.

If I am off-base In any of this, I am sure we will get any needed correction to your benefit AND mine.

[Marty Kasprzyk]

A lighter bridge having a narrower waist might help.  Try heavy tension gauge strings--that's why they're made.

[Mike Spencer]

What measure is the after string length?

[bkwood]

Some violins are just quieter. I have made a few that had a good volume, but one of them is like you describe, nice sounding but without oomph. I've tried everything with the sound post and thinned the bridge. This violin helped me come to the conclusion that violins have a unique character that setup changes won't really alter. I am guessing that your violin isn't going to become a Cannone. Accept it as it is.

[Don Noon]

13 minutes ago, bkwood said:

I am guessing that your violin isn't going to become a Cannone. Accept it as it is.

Unless you replace the top, back, ribs, neck, and give it a new setup.  It will probably be a different type of non-Cannone, though. 

[deans]

Sweet and quiet is way better than loud and obnoxious, and they waaaay out number yours.

[Carl Stross]

2 hours ago, Don Noon said:

Right, Carl, I missed the idea that the neck projection, if excessively low, would restrict power.  The new top was meant as a semi-joke, like:  If you want your VW microbus to go a lot faster, transplant a turbocharged Porsche engine into it.

Didn't mean to "correct" you. I just saw a good opportunity for a joke and I'm trying not to miss those ones.

[catnip]

I made a violin last year that had a sweet sound without projection.  I use it as my practice violin because because it is easy to play and allows me to hear what others are playing.  From my notes the top was from old European spruce but it was incredibly dull.  I should have rejected the plate.  It was very flexible across the grain that I had to stop graduations at 76 gm with an average thickness over 3 mm.   I will replace the top in the future but it is not a priority since I like the quiet sweet sound.  With the basebar it was 78 gm with m5 at 291 hz.  I did treat the inside of the top to stiffen it a bit (raised it to 299 hz).   But this violin top is an outlier from the usual weights and tap tones.   In future any top like this will be rejected but it is hard to do after investing so much time in carving it

[martin swan]

5 hours ago, bkwood said:

This violin helped me come to the conclusion that violins have a unique character that setup changes won't really alter. I am guessing that your violin isn't going to become a Cannone. Accept it as it is.

Amen!

[WorksAsIntended]

I wish I had a violin like that as a second instrument for family music. Mine is just so loud that the living room is way way to small and I hate to need to play pp all the time. 

[FoxMitchell]

9 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

Usually whipping a horse running at full gallop won't make it run faster.

That is an excellent analogy!

But sometimes you can do something like change the bridle or the shoes or saddle to make the horse happier and run faster.

If the quietness is intrinsic to the instrument then there's nothing to be done, but if setup is holding it back there may be options.

 

6 hours ago, Julian Cossmann Cooke said:

Are you describing the sound when you play the instrument or are you sitting, listening as someone else plays it? Someone else here suggested having someone else play it and I second that.

Both! It's quiet under the ear, and while sweet-sounding, it doesn't fill the room with sound.

 

9 hours ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

(The 2 bassbars instead of a post touch of genius idea is also already taken.)

...did that really exist?

 

11 hours ago, carl stross said:

The usual remedy would be to fit a tighter ( longer ) post.

I had actually heard shorter posts were better for increasing volume because they allow the plates to vibrate more freely. I'm confused now.

 

6 hours ago, Mike Spencer said:

What measure is the after string length?

Currently 54.6mm.

 

32 minutes ago, WorksAsIntended said:

I wish I had a violin like that as a second instrument for family music. Mine is just so loud that the living room is way way to small and I hate to need to play pp all the time. 

Hehe, I actually use it to practice at 3am because the sound doesn't reverberate across the house and can easily be contained by a closed door. But the lack of 'reserve power' is disappointing. But it has such a nice sweet sound! I just wish it had more Oomph to it.

 

7 hours ago, Don Noon said:

Other than that, either get another violin or carve a new top from light, stiff wood if you want loud.

I just learned to make/set soundposts, working on bridges now; I think carving a new top is still a little ways away.

 

[Marty Kasprzyk]

1 hour ago, catnip said:

I made a violin last year that had a sweet sound without projection.  I use it as my practice violin because because it is easy to play and allows me to hear what others are playing.  From my notes the top was from old European spruce but it was incredibly dull.  I should have rejected the plate.  It was very flexible across the grain that I had to stop graduations at 76 gm with an average thickness over 3 mm.   I will replace the top in the future but it is not a priority since I like the quiet sweet sound.  With the basebar it was 78 gm with m5 at 291 hz.  I did treat the inside of the top to stiffen it a bit (raised it to 299 hz).   But this violin top is an outlier from the usual weights and tap tones.   In future any top like this will be rejected but it is hard to do after investing so much time in carving it

If you are going to replace the top anyway it might be fun to first thin the original one down to about 65 g. to see what happens when free and reassembled.

[WorksAsIntended]

3 minutes ago, FoxMitchell said:

 

I had actually heard shorter posts were better for increasing volume because they allow the plates to vibrate more freely. I'm confused now.

 

Afaik it's pretty similar to string tension. If the violin is having enough power lower tension can increase volume. If the violin lacks of power you may be able to awake it by adding more tension. 

I used to own a modernised baroque violin. The luthier did put a longer sound post in and suddenly it was way louder. 

[Eloffe]

I have a sweet quiet violin ,i thought it was a limiting factor,until i heard my daughter busking in an enclosed market in a public car park it sounded strong from all points at  distance  

[thirteenthsteph]

My viola used to have a pretty muffled sound, especially on the higher positions. I took it to a luthier who saw that it has a relatively thin top plate and he commented that the post was too thick for the plate. He cut a longer, thinner one, which he placed further inside the foot of the bridge and suddenly it was so much louder and clearer.

[Carl Stross]

1 hour ago, FoxMitchell said:

I had actually heard shorter posts were better for increasing volume because they allow the plates to vibrate more freely. I'm confused now.

No reason to be confused : if the post is too long it'll choke the violin eventually. But what you said in the original post is that when you try to push it a bit to shout, it doesn't and that made me think the post might be too short. It would be nice if you could post a couple of pictures of the violin. From that one could speculate in a more informed manner. Maybe the neckset is too low or the string angle too large. A sound sample will help. too. Even better is to take it to a competent professional - there is only that much confusion you can adsorb on MN and who knows , one day you might want to get back to playing it.  

[rossini]

13 hours ago, FoxMitchell said:

I have a violin that has the sweetest sound ever! It's silky, warm, sublime, it effortlessly whispers and talks calmly and composed. But when you try to push it to shout a bit, it doesn't.

Basically, it's really easy to play pianissimo, and it's completely at home up to mezzo-forte. But you don't get the satisfaction of a stronger, louder sound on forte or above.

The soundpost was moved all over the place in it before, but anywhere out of the 'default position' hasn't benefited the volume. I have tried Zyex, Tonicas, Vision Solo Titanium and Dominants on it with different results but also none that benefits volume satisfactorily.

Now that I can make my own soundposts I was thinking perhaps experimenting with a different one? Perhaps longer? Perhaps shorter? Maybe I'll make one out of Pernambuco and see what happens!    I also considered maybe the bridge? It's kinda chunky. And I should learn to cut those too sooner or later!

But before I go about that, I was wondering if the wonderful wise folks here would have some suggestions and/or insight on how to improve a good but quiet instrument.

How old is the violin? Can you post pictures from top and side to show the neck ?  Can you tell hight of the bridge? Picture of What type of tail gut is on?