Violin parts -- worth buying if not complete violin?

[Ski]

I've got the opportunity to buy some violin parts, with the primary piece of any interest being the bottom part of the body of a violin that is from the late 1800's.  Based on the pictures I've seen, I believe it to be authentic.  It comes with a top piece of the body as well, but a piece of the top piece has broken off and I believe is missing.

If, hypothetically, this particular make of violin were worth about $20,000 if in good condition and playable, would this body-only minus-the-top (including the underside of the fingerboard, but not the top) have any value beyond being a curiosity?

Thanks for any insights.  My gut is saying that I should be all over it, but my rational side is being, well, rational.

 

 

[duane88]

I've got a Fendt body, no scroll, post crack in the back, that you could purchase.

 

We all had our "romantic" phase. Better to leave it, I think.

[Conor Russell]

Ski,

I find it hard to work out what's there. You have a front with a piece missing, and a back?

If you happen to have another from which to salvage  a head and ribs it might work out, but a composite  violin  will be worth much less than a complete one. 

[Nick Allen]

That doesn't stop Strads being worth millions lol.

 

[Ski]

The back is complete and the exterior appears to be in nice condition.  The interior is discolored on one end (I have pictures only, at this point, so I don't know if it's dust, or if it was exposed to the elements at some point).  It's a two piece back (seam down the middle).  The neck is still attached (I'm not sure how solidly; I've just seen pictures), but I'm waiting to hear back as to whether the scroll is intact as there were no pictures beyond the nut..  There is no fingerboard on the neck (I'm not sure if it's floating around in the case or not).

I believe that the top is also there, but a strip about 1" wide is missing from it.  (I was told that this was from a different instrument, that the top and the bottom were different sizes, but they were in the same (very old) case, and I believe that the seller, who clearly knows nothing about violins, might be mistaken about this. Not sure, though).

I do not have the ability, nor do is there anyone in this area who does, to repair this, so my interest -- as would anyone else in this area who has seen it in the shop -- would strictly be for resale.  Kids in college. Enough said! 

 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2017 by Ski

[Violadamore]

I'll note that (as has been pointed out in a recent thread), the top is the most important part sound wise.  If you don't have that, IMHO, you won't have anything close to the original.  That said, I personally would be tempted, if some small part of a Strad or a GDG ever drifted my way, to assemble a Marknevarius or a Guarnebach, just for the amusement value.   Anything less, however, would simply be another pointless Frankenfiddle, which is not worth the waste of effort, if you aren't getting a decent top.

[Guido]

I'd think the broken off piece is key in your deceision. If it is a small piece or even still exists, it might make sense to repair the top in a reasonable manner.

If the top is a write-off, as above, the 'old violin' doesn't exist, nothing to buy here but some wood.

[jacobsaunders]

One often hears that this or that part of a violin is the “most important”. I have always considered that to be nonsense. ALL of a violin is important! If I buy a violin (which I do regularly), I want to get the whole instrument. Buying bits and bobs, in the hope of building a frankenfiddle where nobody will notice, is a strategy for getting your garage full of junk very quickly.

[Ski]

I received a few more pictures.  Part of the pegbox is there, but broken off, and there is no scroll. 

The top is in terrible condition (broken off piece is not in the pictures, so I assume completely missing, and there is no varnish at all remaining, so it seems to have been exposed to the elements).  That was disappointing, since the outside of the bottom piece is actually in nice condition -- nice varnish. 

I think I'll pass, but gosh, it's still intriguing.   I don't want to post the name of the maker, as I'm sure there are a bunch of us in my neck of the woods who have seen it, and are googling it, and are thinking the same thing, and oddly though I find references to the maker's son (who followed in his father's footsteps and made violins), I don't find examples from the father himself, and this appears to be one of those.  But if I name the maker here on the board, it will wind up right at the top of the google hits list. 

I have no experience with older violins, so as a newbie to that, one of the things I find interesting about this is that there is no label inside.  The maker's mark appears to be (gently) burned into the wood along the waist of the body -- both sides.  There is also a maker's mark of sorts.  But even though I believe that the bottom is salvageable, I think that's the only piece that is, and isn't worth the $120 being asked.

[Conor Russell]

At $120 it might be tempting, just to have an example of a makers work. I have  a shed full of such things, but then again, I often wish I hadn't.

[sospiri]

8 hours ago, Violadamore said:

 I personally would be tempted, if some small part of a Strad or a GDG ever drifted my way, to assemble a Marknevarius or a Guarnebach, just for the amusement value.   Anything less, however, would simply be another pointless Frankenfiddle, which is not worth the waste of effort, if you aren't getting a decent top.

Wouldn't the ideal Frankenfiddle have the best sound of all? Surely the time and effort that would go into such a project would be worth it?

[Ski]

One correction:  after looking at the additional pictures that she sent last night, the body that I believe is of the most interest does NOT have the neck attached.  The listing actually contains two body bottoms (and I believe just one top).  The second body -- which is in horrendous condition (appears to have survived a flood, based on the pictures) -- is the one that has the neck attached.  The fingerboard appears to be there as well, detached from the neck, so perhaps the flood idea has merit.

[franciscus]

4 hours ago, Ski said:

But if I name the maker here on the board, it will wind up right at the top of the google hits list.

Doubt very seriously - Google search of almost any known maker would return at least one hit to Maestronet. So, you can freely post the pictures here, if you are interested to get any serious answer. Besides, if you are interested in buying the wood which has been once the part of the violin (for mentioned US$120, but per kilogram + shipping), or various label of the various (real or fictional - up to you) makers (for US$1.00 + postal stamp), I could help you  Please, be serious - Maestronet is the serious place (most of the time)

[Brad Dorsey]

I know a man who told me that he discovered a violin with a Stradivari back in a violin shop in Europe.  Maybe, Strad ribs, too.  I forget.  The violin belonged to a client of the shop, and it was in for repairs.  He told the shop owner that he might be interested in buying it if it ever came on the market.  The shop owner asked him why.  Realizing that he would never get an opportunity to buy it if he revealed the back's maker, but needing to give a plausible reason for his interest in an otherwise non-descript instrument, he simply said that he thought the back might be Italian.

For decades, this man has been a very high level shopless world-traveling instrument and bow dealer.  In my opinion, he has the knowledge to recognize a Strad back.  I want to preserve his anonymity because, among other things, this violin might still be in play.

How much would a Strad back be worth?

 

[Ski]

Franciscus, part of the intrigue of this to me is that there are absolutely no examples of a violin by this maker online that I can find.  When I google "First Last" name and "violin", I come up with less than 50 hits -- most of which mention him in passing as the father of his more prolific son. 

Regardless of what my decision is, I find the topic fascinating, and appreciate all of the input.

[Bill Yacey]

What you are proposing sort of seems like assembling an automobile from scratch by purchasing used parts from the auto wrecking yards, and hiring a mechanic to assemble it for you. The costs are likely to exceed what the end result is worth.

 

[Ski]

As the parent of college students whose financial aid packages were based on their father's income (and whose father has decided not to contribute), I actually don't aspire to have this built or restored.  It would strictly be for resale purposes to kick toward the kids' college tuition.  My goal is that they be able to graduate with no more debt than the standard US college student (which for those of you outside of the US is $27,000) without borrow any funds myself.  I'm just not certain whether any true enthusiasts would have any interest in the back alone.  I live in a very rural area, and the closest decent (I think?  not even sure if they're decent!) luthier is quite a distance away. 

The back is actually gorgeous in and of itself, and I'm leaning toward buying it and hanging it on the wall in a shadow box if it turns out that it has no other intrinsic value.  It would be both a gorgeous piece of art (if my husband liked it -- he's not a huge fan of violins, but he actually loves beautiful wood...), as well as a reminder about buying things that I'm not sure of the value of!  But I'm still wavering. 

[Frank Nichols]

Little bells always go off when I hear about a seller selling something old that knows little or nothing about the topic. My experience, and I am NOT saying this is the case here, is that the seller knows far more about what they are selling and it's worth than they are letting on. The best way for a con to get a persons interest is to claim ignorance and hint at "valuable" instead of saying it.

[Dwight Brown]

I guess the only way I would do it is if it was really cheap and you are willing to end up with wall art.

DLB

[Conor Russell]

Ski, there were sheets of labels printed  and sold to fiddle shops to be snipped out and stuck into their merchantice. Some of the names were just made up, and some were real, but all the labels  were fake. 

Let me suggest that you pm someone  who  might know what you have. You'll  at least know if the thing has any merit and is worth  pursuing. Unless you show someone, you'll  be in the dark, and may be very  disappointed. Alternatively you could send a photo  to an auction house and they might advise you. Without  seeing the thing in the flesh, I doubt that anyone  will confirm  a great discovery, but at least if it's  worthless you'll  know,  and be able to leave it.

[Ski]

I'm actually completely confident that this seller knows zilch about violins.  I'm familiar with her selling and her shop, and that's actually the one thing that I *am* confident about with this.

I have PM'ed a few pictures to a couple of people here, and I do believe that my gut is correct that it is legitimate.  The only question would be whether someday, somewhere I might find someone who would be interested in owning it.  The more I look at the pictures, the more I think it would be cool for someone to actually do something with this, and my buying it might result in it having a musical future if the right enthusiast finds it.  And it actually is a truly beautiful piece of wood.  AND my husband suggested that I go for it.  I might go take a look in person tomorrow.