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Centre seam


Emilg
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I find jointing the back halves still a bit of a pain. :unsure:

For #3 it went OK, but at certain points the seam is a bit more visible, than in others.Nothing drastic though.

Are there tricks of the trade to make them a bit less visible with heat, moisture, glue, ..?

For the seam i used titebond original glue.

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I just went through several tries to get the joint in the back to my 4th violin completely closed. It was the most trouble I ever had for some reason. I have a shooting board clamped to my table saw table to plane the initial joint. But I was still seeing small amounts of light through the joint. Finally, I took an old 2' level and glued 120 grit sand paper on one edge and clamped that to the table and did a few passes. that did the trick. I also think Tightbond might show a visible line more than hide glue. Tightbond will also require clamping. When clamping it's good to plane a bevel on the outside edges of the boards to ensure the pressure of the clamps is on the middle of the boards, so it doesn't close more on one side than the other. Hide glue doesn't need to be clamped.

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Another thing I've found that works, surely frowned upon by purists, is to prepare your joint and glue the pieces together. Then, when the glue has set and you find you're not satisfied with the joint just run it through a table saw with a fine finish blade and reglue it.

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2 hours ago, Emilg said:

I find jointing the back halves still a bit of a pain. :unsure:

For #3 it went OK, but at certain points the seam is a bit more visible, than in others.Nothing drastic though.

Are there tricks of the trade to make them a bit less visible with heat, moisture, glue, ..?

For the seam i used titebond original glue.

Learn from an expert woodworker! A good joiner, wood machinist, violin or furniture maker may show you how to plane a perfect joint.

However if you just wnt to be an amateur maker it is the method you find best gives you the satisfaction.

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Thanks, so no special tricks for hiding the seam ^_^

The back is getting to the final outline, so i'll leave it like it is, i've seen worse on other fiddles.

Planing the pieces together and sanding with 120 grit sounds like a good plan for #4.

I'll be sure to inspect the seam sooner and redo the whole thing when it doesn't look perfect right away.

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2 hours ago, Emilg said:

I find jointing the back halves still a bit of a pain. :unsure:

For #3 it went OK, but at certain points the seam is a bit more visible, than in others.Nothing drastic though.

Are there tricks of the trade to make them a bit less visible with heat, moisture, glue, ..?

For the seam i used titebond original glue.

What method are you using? 

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5 minutes ago, James M. Jones said:

What method are you using? 

I've been trying different things, but it seems i need to get me a good long plane for this job.

For #3 i worked mainly with a scraper to get a good visual fit, scraped a little extra where the maple wood be removed later on and used alot of clamps.:D

For #1 and #2 i also used the sandpaper on a piece of straight wood, with a bit better results.

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17 minutes ago, Wolfjk said:

Learn from an expert woodworker! A good joiner, wood machinist, violin or furniture maker may show you how to plane a perfect joint.

However if you just wnt to be an amateur maker it is the method you find best gives you the satisfaction.

Thanks, I dont know any (good) woodworkers, but youtube might have some intructional videos on this.

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The best way is to use a good flat and sharp jack plane or jointer/fore plane, adjust it to take a .001/.0005 shaving along the whole length of the joint. Planing both isn't as important, as long as you keep the plane square to the underside of the batten. You can try to clamp a square block of wood to the plane, to act as a kind of fence as you plane. 

Hide glue is a must on the centre joint. Titebond will move around after a while, as it never fully hardens quite like hide glue.

I practiced and perfected this over many tries. I use a rub joint, that's really all you need. Make sure the joint is perfect, or even hollow in the middle by ~.002 or so, apply the glue (quickly) and immediately plop the other half on, and start rubbing it back and forth, until it starts to grab, upon which you will line the plates up, and let it dry for about 24 hrs. Make sure to wipe off the glue squeeze, or you'll have a hard time getting it off later.

It just takes practice, that's it. I posted about the same thing about a year ago, with the same problems, using the same glue. I thought that I knew better, and everyone urged that I use hide for this process, and they were definitely right lol.

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https://www.woodcraft.com/products/woodriver-5-bench-hand-plane-v3?gclid=Cj0KEQjwnsPGBRDo4c6RqK-Oqu8BEiQAwNviCXU8Of2CF9ezDwVUozNo9gTr4ANzt1FZH_IRSBdagekaAgEI8P8HAQ

Great plane for the price. They usually come flat and ready to go out of the box. All you need to do is hone it.

Or you could go with a nice used Stanley. It usually takes a good amount of work to get them tuned up. But they can be had for pretty good prices on eBay/Craigslist/flea markets.

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It's also all about your planing technique. Put weight on the nose at first, then transition your weight to the middle as you approach the center of the joint, then transition to the rear tote as you make your exit swipe. This usually means that your plane should be sharp enough to take a .001 shaving without putting any weight at all, using 1 hand.

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1 minute ago, Nick Allen said:

It's also all about your planing technique. Put weight on the nose at first, then transition your weight to the middle as you approach the center of the joint, then transition to the rear tote as you make your exit swipe. This usually means that your plane should be sharp enough to take a .001 shaving without putting any weight at all, using 1 hand.

Thanks Nick, sounds like good advice. I'll look for a nice used 14" Stanley plane and sharpen it as good as i can.

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Hi Emilg, Nick mentioned most of what I was going to say.  You either have a problem with plane set-up, how you sharpened the iron, or your technique. Possibly a combination of all three.  Learning to plane a joint (and sharpening) is a basic woodworking skill that really deserves time figuring out how to do right.  As wide as the center joint is, if you can see light, you're way off. As far as you tube videos, I really like watching videos by Paul Sellers.

-Jim

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A really good-working plane makes center joints almost easy. Not that the tips on use, from Nick a few posts back, aren't important.

A poorly working plane can sour almost anyone on the use of hand tools. If one is getting better results from using 120 sandpaper, to make center joints, something about the plane, or the planing technique,is seriously off.

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12 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

A really good-working plane makes center joints almost easy. Not that the tips on use, from Nick a few posts back, aren't important.

A poorly working plane can sour almost anyone on the use of hand tools. If you're getting better results from using 120 sandpaper, something is seriously off.

Yeah, I will work on it again next time. Though I thought I had my plane sharp, square, and set very light, I kept ending up with a small amount of light in the middle when I held the halves together. For what it's worth though, a few swipes on my sandpaper fence did the trick and resulted in an almost invisible joint. As I noted, I didn't expect experts to approve.

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1 hour ago, Emilg said:

Thanks Jim, i will try to learn it the right way with a prober plane (the one i used was probably too short and/or not sharp enough),

I'll have a look at the Paul Sellers videos :rolleyes:

 

 

3 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

A really good-working plane makes center joints almost easy. Not that the tips on use, from Nick a few posts back, aren't important.

A poorly working plane can sour almost anyone on the use of hand tools. If you're getting better results from using 120 sandpaper, something is seriously off.

If taken care of ,They also hold their cash value very well. If you ever decide to change. 

   given the substantial initial investment in violin making tools, The extra cost of a really good one VS an OK one, is a small percentage, One that will pay dividends in the future.

  As far as tips go ,scrapping small areas is not a good way to make big surfaces flat. The general rule is "use the biggest tool possible for as long as possible". another good general rule is to always put good tool condition as priority one, before working with it.Yet another would be to buy or make the best quality tool available. If you do get a plane always make the final pass full length.  Also using a surface plate,I find helpful.  

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Thanks David, James,

chisels and gouges haven't been much of a problem sofar, but sharpening plane blades i find difficult to get them razor sharp.

I'll practise first with my 10" plane and will upgrade to a better/longer plane if necessary..

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1 hour ago, bkwood said:

Yeah, I will work on it again next time. Though I thought I had my plane sharp, square, and set very light, I kept ending up with a small amount of light in the middle when I held the halves together. For what it's worth though, a few swipes on my sandpaper fence did the trick and resulted in an almost invisible joint. As I noted, I didn't expect experts to approve.

Attend the next VSA convention, with enough prior warning, and I (along with many others) will  bend over backwards to accommodate you, and I can bring some of my favorite planes along, for you to try.  Not that I don't hide out in my room sometimes. when the level gets overly intense,

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2 hours ago, bkwood said:

Yeah, I will work on it again next time. Though I thought I had my plane sharp, square, and set very light, I kept ending up with a small amount of light in the middle when I held the halves together. For what it's worth though, a few swipes on my sandpaper fence did the trick and resulted in an almost invisible joint. As I noted, I didn't expect experts to approve.

Sanded joint can be misleading, especially with such a coarse grit. It leaves the wood a bit fuzzy and the light doesn't pass as easily but the gap is still there. When you add the glue the line will be visible. When you plane the surfaces with properly sharp and set plane, the surfaces are glass-shiny and there is noticeable friction (some call it suction fit) between the halves when you hold them together.

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