More ID process learning

[Guido]

Hello,

I've  been on this forum for a week and I love the learning.

Here is another violin that I would like to understand better.

My observations so far:

Purfling: commercial Markneukirchen style?

Corners: there is not much overhang and it's inconsistent between the corners. I have taken a pic of a (more relevant back) corner thast shows enough overhang to make me think: not built on the back.

Scroll: the scroll is fluted all the way into the throat to the bitter end and the back does not have a delta. Not Markneukirchen?

Blocks: I can make out 4 corner blocks but wouldn't be able to differentiate between an outside or an inside mold without the top off.

Most of my reading the threats so far has been on yet another violin ID that turned out to have come from Saxony, hence my observations above.

But where to from here? Keen to learn

[GeorgeH]

It looks like an early 20th century Bohemian violin to me.

[jacobsaunders]

It looks to me like the usual “Markneukirchener Ware” with a slightly re-worked or foreign scroll. I wouldn't make too much of irregular back “overhang” (for want of an English word) since someone has evidently had the back off, judging by the wallnut stain painted all around the edges.

[GeorgeH]

36 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

It looks to me like the usual “Markneukirchener Ware” with a slightly re-worked or foreign scroll. I wouldn't make too much of irregular back “overhang” (for want of an English word) since someone has evidently had the back off, judging by the wallnut stain painted all around the edges.

It doesn't look typically Markneukirchen in origin to me. I think the scroll fits the rest of the violin, and along with the varnish, ff's, purfling, and overall form suggest Bohemian to me, not "the usual 'Markneukirchener Ware.'"

I can't see the miter joints well enough from the pictures to say it is definitely BOB or not. The OP suggests it has corner blocks, so maybe not. The "walnut stain," if that's what it is, seems to be around the top edges, too, for whatever that's worth. 

[Blank face]

Much, if not most of the "Markneukirchner Ware" of the ca. 1900 and later period was produced in Schönbach, which was located in Bohemia, close to the saxon border, and often "trafficked". So there's usually no difference to tell.

I once found a Strad-label, double-side printed, one side reading "Made in Gremany, the other "Made in Czechoslowakia", so after 1919 it was still the same.

[GeorgeH]

27 minutes ago, Blank face said:

I once found a Strad-label, double-side printed, one side reading "Made in Gremany, the other "Made in Czechoslowakia", so after 1919 it was still the same.

That's funny! 

I am so used to seeing this combination of scroll, varnish, ffs, and form called "Bohemian" that I assume that it more likely originated in Bohemia than in Saxony. I suppose that they can lumped in with "Markneukirchener Ware," but they generally seem to be completed with more elegance and distinct from the usual "rubbish."

[Blank face]

Many say it just the other way round, cause the wages were lower and th production numbers higher in Schönbach. Factually I think it's usually not possible to keep it apart.

[GeorgeH]

1 minute ago, Blank face said:

Many say it just the other way round, cause the wages were lower and th production numbers higher in Schönbach. Factually I think it's usually not possible to keep it apart.

Interesting! Thanks, Blank Face.

[GeorgeH]

The first violin I ever posted here was in this thread:

The people who responded tagged it as Markneukirchen; when I had it appraised for insurance purposes, the appraiser said Bohemian. You can see the similarities to the OP's violin.

[Guido]

Thanks a lot for the info. And thanks George for referring to your post. I, too, can see lots of similarities, even tough my ffs aren't as long.

Interestingly, my next question would have been: What about those f-holes? The upper eye is the smallest I have ever seen. Anything of relevance in that?

George, you had the exact same question but didn't get an answer. So maybe we try again...?

On "reading" ffs; has anyone got a link to a post that "teaches" f-hole interpretation?

[Violadamore]

3 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

The first violin I ever posted here was in this thread:

The people who responded tagged it as Markneukirchen; when I had it appraised for insurance purposes, the appraiser said Bohemian. You can see the similarities to the OP's violin.

Prior to 1945, the entire area was German-speaking and Saxon influenced, the major difference being the Czech side was more Roman Catholic (a legacy from Austro-Hungarian rule), and identical violins were produced on both sides of the border.  After the victorious Allies cleared out the German-speakers from that part of Czechoslovakia, the surviving refugees mostly eventually wound up in Bubenreuth after an amusingly abortive attempt to stick some in Mittenwald (to the scandal of the Mittenwalders).  Some stayed in Saxony under the Communists, but none remained in Luby.

[martin swan]

3 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

That's funny! 

I am so used to seeing this combination of scroll, varnish, ffs, and form called "Bohemian" that I assume that it more likely originated in Bohemia than in Saxony. I suppose that they can lumped in with "Markneukirchener Ware," but they generally seem to be completed with more elegance and distinct from the usual "rubbish."

George, it's worth looking at a map - Markneukirchen (Saxony) and Schoenbach, now called Luby (Bohemia) are walking distance apart, as are Klingenthal and Bad Brambach. Really it's impossible to distinguish between a violin made in Markneukirchen, Schoenbach or Klingenthal, even though a lot of dealers and pundits like to trot out the names.

If you look at violin-making in "Bohemia" really there is only Schoenbach (which is just part of the same small geographical area as Markneukirchen) and Prague, which is an entirely different tradition using inside molds and closely related to Vienna/Mittenwald etc. Of course there are isolated makers from different places in "Bohemia" as everywhere (I can think of violins I have seen from Opava/Silesia, Kutna Hora and Moravia) but these are either related directly to MK/Sch or Prague

There is also Hungarian making, with Budapest as the high expression, but this is really not Bohemia.

So with the exception of Prague, I don't think there is a Bohemian school which can be seen as separate from Saxony.

[GeorgeH]

Thanks, Violadamore and Martin - very interesting.

Yet, I run into Saxon/German/Bohemian violins with some frequency that seem to be characteristically different from the typical Markneukirchen and Mittenwald violins. The scrolls are larger, rounder, cut deep into the throat, nicer fluting, and no delta. The corners are blocked, but the miter joints look like BOB. The varnish is very hard and transparent and a light golden-brown (almost orange) in color. The tops are usually very tight-grained spruce. The saddles are not cut into the ribs, and the bottom rib is always 2 pieces. The ff's are well cut. The purfling is typical for Markneukirchen. 

Still, these are just Markies with a few exceptions to the checklist (most notably the scrolls)?

[Violadamore]

55 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

Thanks, Violadamore and Martin - very interesting.

Yet, I run into Saxon/German/Bohemian violins with some frequency that seem to be characteristically different from the typical Markneukirchen and Mittenwald violins. The scrolls are larger, rounder, cut deep into the throat, nicer fluting, and no delta. The corners are blocked, but the miter joints look like BOB. The varnish is very hard and transparent and a light golden-brown (almost orange) in color. The tops are usually very tight-grained spruce. The saddles are not cut into the ribs, and the bottom rib is always 2 pieces. The ff's are well cut. The purfling is typical for Markneukirchen. 

Still, these are just Markies with a few exceptions to the checklist (most notably the scrolls)?

Do any of them have a little glazed paper rectangular label inside saying "Handarbeitet in Mittenwald/Made in Germany" or something similar?  After the Mittenwalders pitched a fit about the Saxon refugees working techniques, most left, but at least one family stayed on, opened a small factory, and produced modern Saxon style violins with Mittenwald labels into the 1950's or 1960's.  I've got one of these in my collection.  Before WW II, from the middle 1920's, similar things were being made in both Markneukirchen and Schoenbach, the most successful and best known being the Roths (factory later moved to Bubenreuth, and still being made).

[jacobsaunders]

You can read about the difficulties of the juxtaposition of the Schönbach makers who had to flee to Mittenwald after WWII onto the Mittenwald tradition in an article from that time in the “New Yorker” from Feb, 18, 1956, p. 94: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1956/02/18/a-spray-gun-for-the-varnish

 

[Blank face]

7 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

 

Yet, I run into Saxon/German/Bohemian violins with some frequency that seem to be characteristically different from the typical Markneukirchen and Mittenwald violins. The scrolls are larger, rounder, cut deep into the throat, nicer fluting, and no delta. The corners are blocked, but the miter joints look like BOB. The varnish is very hard and transparent and a light golden-brown (almost orange) in color. The tops are usually very tight-grained spruce. The saddles are not cut into the ribs, and the bottom rib is always 2 pieces. The ff's are well cut. The purfling is typical for Markneukirchen. 

Still, these are just Markies with a few exceptions to the checklist (most notably the scrolls)?

George,

I think you are talking about a type of "Dutzendware" from the early 20th century, when styles changed a bit. It's the same with this as with all the other stuff from the region. Mittenwald is a completely different matter, the way of production and construction, selling etc. was separated. I'm actually preferring to say "Vogtland (roughly land of the magistrators)", this term includes the saxon and bohemian parts of the region, as well as a part of Thuringia.

Reg. Handarbeit aus Mittenwald, as I explained in another thread, from 1930 on homeworking there was finished, because of the hard Vogtland competition and it was more easy to earn money in the tourist industry. The violins with this label, and most of them are pre-war, are with a few exceptions nothing but "Markneukirchenner Ware".

[Violadamore]

8 hours ago, Blank face said:

Reg. Handarbeit aus Mittenwald, as I explained in another thread, from 1930 on homeworking there was finished, because of the hard Vogtland competition and it was more easy to earn money in the tourist industry. The violins with this label, and most of them are pre-war, are with a few exceptions nothing but "Markneukirchenner Ware".

I disagree with the "pre-war".  Find a copy of the article Jacob posted, and investigate Wilfer and Roth's association with instrument making moving to Bubenreuth. 

[Blank face]

1 hour ago, Violadamore said:

I disagree with the "pre-war".  Find a copy of the article Jacob posted, and investigate Wilfer and Roth's association with instrument making moving to Bubenreuth. 

If you're relying on Jacob only, here was a thread where he mentioned a 1927 Handarbeit

The article from the Spiegel is referring to the conflict between the "native" Mittenwald makers (only a very few at the period, and no homeworkers anymore) calling their business "Handarbeit" and the newcomers from Schönbach who were defamed making "Maschinengeigen". This is a complete different matter, which you misunderstood.

Lost in translation?

[Violadamore]

Whatever.   Something I am curious about is where the 1920-30's produce of the Mittenwald violin school (which was brought up in a thread a few days ago) fits into all of this?

[jacobsaunders]

27 minutes ago, Blank face said:

 

 

Lost in translation?

Yeah, the Americans have their problems understanding English

[Violadamore]

23 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Yeah, the Americans have their problems understanding English

No, the English have their problems understanding Americans.

[Blank face]

13 hours ago, Violadamore said:

Whatever.   Something I am curious about is where the 1920-30's produce of the Mittenwald violin school (which was brought up in a thread a few days ago) fits into all of this?

Many of the school production was sold with the label of the different teachers (Reiter, Kriner etc.), Lüttgendorff mentioned it somewhere, and probably sold to southgerman dealers/makers or simply the Verleger firms, too, I'm supposing. Popping up around 1930 are the "Mittenwalder Geigenbau" labelled violins, constructed with the traditional internal mould, but with a specific varnish, fluted ffs and somhow clunky edges; I once sent a mail to the school asking if they were produced there, but didn't received an answer yet.

[Violinio]

@Blank face I have a violin with the same Mittenwald Geigenbau label and explored this recently I found the information noted below: ( It seems that the violin you have photographed was not produced by the schools but by a more qualified source under the Guidance/workshop of Hans Nebel.

Mittenwalder Geigenbau was a Company Name founded by Hans Nebel. Some good Mittenwald violinmakers worked for him.

Hans Nebel was born in Mittenwald visited the violinmaking school here and worked in well-known violin workshops

in Vienna at Johann Stübinger, in Stuttgart at Eugen Gärtner and at the very famous workshop Wurlitzer in New York.

1924 he founded his own shop in Philadelphia but went back to Mittenwald in the 1930ies.

Hans Nebel  born 02.07.1892 in Mittenwald    passed away at  18.03.1979 in Mittenwald

Edited September 21 by Violinio

[Blank face]

On 9/19/2023 at 11:32 AM, Violinio said:

@Blank face I have a violin with the same Mittenwald Geigenbau label and explored this recently I found the information noted below: ( It seems that the violin you have photographed was not produced by the schools but by a more qualified source under the Guidance/workshop of Hans Nebel.

Mittenwalder Geigenbau was a Company Name founded by Hans Nebel. Some good Mittenwald violinmakers worked for him.

Hans Nebel was born in Mittenwald visited the violinmaking school here and worked in well-known violin workshops

in Vienna at Johann Stübinger, in Stuttgart at Eugen Gärtner and at the very famous workshop Wurlitzer in New York.

1924 he founded his own shop in Philadelphia but went back to Mittenwald in the 1930ies.

Hans Nebel  born 02.07.1892 in Mittenwald    passed away at  18.03.1979 in Mittenwald

Thanks for the informations!

Yes, I’m aware of Hans Nebel, who was also often mentioned in the forum. The problem is, that without any personal signature it’s hard to tell who made a particular violin, and it was common practice that instruments made in the school were sold anonymously to shops or under the name of the teacher. 
The violin I pictured wasn’t (in my opinion) a especially well made instrument, rather very heavy and somehow irregular, so that I won’t assume it was made by an experienced maker. But we never can know for sure.

[Brad Dorsey]

On 9/19/2023 at 5:32 AM, Violinio said:

...Hans Nebel was born in Mittenwald visited the violinmaking school here and worked...at the very famous workshop Wurlitzer in New York.  1924 he founded his own shop in Philadelphia but went back to Mittenwald in the 1930ies.  Hans Nebel  born 02.07.1892 in Mittenwald    passed away at  18.03.1979 in Mittenwald

Hans Nebel did not work in the Wurlitzer shop in New York.  His son, Hans Jurgen Nebel, did work at Wurlitzer, and he is still restoring instruments in New Jersey.