How objective is projection?

[Marty Kasprzyk]

7 minutes ago, A432 said:

Marty, any competent player could have told you that without needing gadgets to know it.

Competent players have often told me that but I'm a injunear and I like objective measurements.

This topic "How objective is projection ?"  was started on March 8, 2017 by Manfio

[martin swan]

27 minutes ago, A432 said:

 

The only performer I know of who was ever meticulous with bow placement was Mischa Elman.

 

[Don Noon]

38 minutes ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

This topic "How objective is projection ?"  was started on March 8, 2017 by Manfio

... and has produced 6 pages of opinions over that 2 1/2 year span.  Yawn.

[David Burgess]

4 hours ago, A432 said:

1.You want me to repeat myself. OK. I'll repeat myself.

2. I got off the fiddle playing/fixing bus in 1983. I suspect I was riding it before you were born. History does not begin in 1980.

1. Heavens no! Repetition is not a substitute for knowledge or thinking skills, grasshopper.    Why did you think that repetition might be pertinent? Claudia Fritz,  Jacques Poitevineau, and Fan Tao are not makers, numb-nuts.

2. Oh, thanks so much for purveying me as being younger than I am, since I like to think so too. I started working full-time in the Weisshaar shop in 1971. Again, what would you like to compare? Actual high-level experience,  how much we can bench press, or what? Your call.

For all we know, since you don't post under your real name, you could easily be some 13-year-old, posting from your Mammas basement.  How would you fare if you posted under your real name, enabling those interested to look it up?

[A432]

You asked me (facetiously, I'm sure)  if I'd ever heard of experiments like the one you linked to.  In response, I quoted a post I'd made on the page previous to your question which showed I was. How did you miss it ?  Or if you didn't, why'd you ask ? (P.S. : who conducts experiments is irrelevant. Replicability & all that stuff).

I pointed out that you were behaving like an alpha male whose status in the pack was threatened. This led you to allege I was using mockery in an attempt to rebut you. Then you turn right around and continue your alpha male dominance displays. It is to laugh. If I thought you were a younger man before, from your seeming inability to read with comprehension (typical of modern "education"'s products), after that  I'd almost (since trading niceties seems to be the order of the day with you) suspect you were a gorilla, roaring and pounding his chest. You have more high level experience &c. &c. &c. I'm grasshopper and you're the venerable master. &c. &c. Pure dominance display.  Fine. This has what relation to your being right ? You're demonstrating the truth of my observation by providing more examples of it.

Trying to discuss this with you is like talking with a Hare Krishna at an airport. HK's brainwashed to broadcast the message he's been programmed with, like he's playing a casette tape (old fart analogy). When you talk to him, he hits the pause button and pretends he's listening. But when you're done he hits "play" again and resumes his broadcast without missing a beat, showing that he hasn't heard a word you've said. That's an illustration of the downside that operating on belief involves. Time after time.

"I think, therefore I am" -- Descartes.

"I mock and insult : this proves I'm dominant" -- Mystery Individual.

"When you have right on your side, argue right. When you have the law in your side, argue law. When you have neither, raise your voice and pound on the table."  -- old lawyers' in-group joke.

Just sayin.'

How 'bout we go back to epistomology ?

 

 

[A432]

Martin : watch a video of him playing.

Ever see bow control like he had ?

Me either.

If you have, by all means link to it (if a video)

[ctanzio]

9 hours ago, A432 said:

The only performer I know of who was ever meticulous with bow placement was Mischa Elman.

High elbow and grand posture has its merits for getting gigs. And Elman was certainly a fabulous player to go along with his penchant for showmanship.

But the ONLY performer with meticulous bow placement? You need to get out more, or at least spend a little more time on YOUTUBE.

Zukerman, Hahn, Vengerov, Ehnes are but a few who have videos where they talk about the importance of meticulous bow placement and control. And playing their performance videos of the same pieces as Elman differ only if you watch the bowing elbow rather than the bow placement and movement upon the strings.

No one gets to world class status without meticulous bow control. Prove me wrong.

[Violadamore]

4 hours ago, A432 said:

How 'bout we go back to epistomology ?

 

 

Naw.  I feel that General Relativity would be more fun.  Anybody else here took a look at McCulloch's book and papers on Quantized Inertia?

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/7x3ed9/darpa-is-researching-quantized-inertia-a-theory-of-physics-many-think-is-pseudoscience

BTW, that's "epistemology". 

 

[A432]

Quote

No one gets to world class status without meticulous bow control. Prove me wrong.

Easily done. Watch the way Sol Gabetta's (the cellist's) bow skates around the first time she has the tune. She's even trying to cut through the mix playing sul tasto (bow over the edge of the fingerboard) !  Keep watching long enough and you'll notice that when she straightens up, the contact point of the bow tends to follow her up toward the FB and follows her down when she leans in instead of her arm straightening/curling. This in addition to the semi-circles and figure eights. Pretty nice player but very undisciplined.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=schumann+piano+quartet&&view=detail&mid=DD328F46BAFAE80067BADD328F46BAFAE80067BA&&FORM=VRDGAR

How many more do you need ?

[A432]

Quote

epistomology

Quote

BTW, that's "epistemology". 

Not when you're approaching it like a duel fought with e-pistols.

[David Burgess]

14 hours ago, A432 said:

"Blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah....."

You have obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a rip, grasshopper.

Now see if you can improve your "economy of words".

[Delabo]

17 hours ago, A432 said:

I pointed out that you were behaving like an alpha male whose status in the pack was threatened.

Thats because he is the alpha male here.

And rightly so.

He is a very generous, nice and humble guy and gives out of his amassed knowledge freely if you ask nicely.

 

[ctanzio]

10 hours ago, A432 said:

Watch the way Sol Gabetta's (the cellist's) bow skates around..

I didn't realize Mischa Elman also played the cello. But since you want to change the topic from violinist bowing to cello, pull up any video of Yo Yo Ma. Notice how his bow frequently skates along the strings.

Wait, let me guess. He is not adding tonal color and articulation to his playing. He is being unmeticulous with his bowing.

[Blank face]

1 hour ago, Delabo said:

Thats because he is the alpha male here.

And rightly so.

.......

[sospiri]

On ‎9‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 11:07 PM, A432 said:

You two keep trying to make this be about me.

It is not about me.

It's about projection, and contextual information that puts that in perspective.

You keep trying to to hijack the discussion and turn it into a soap opera that you frame yourselves as stars in -- changing the topic from information about instruments to a conflict of personalities and egos (very much about egos). IOW, staging a war dance to re-declare your alpha status in the cool guys hierarchy, and parlaying this into creating the impression -- by suggestion -- that nothing I've been at pains to point out is of any value and should be rejected on a non-rational (emotional) basis. The usual term for this is "debunking" (creating the impression of rebuttal via mockery).

But contempt is not rebuttal. Nor is it any legitimate aspect of an intelligent discussion. My screen name and anonymity are, from experience, by design -- to frustrate the (sadly, given human nature and discussion boards overall, predictable) attempt to do exactly what you're trying to pull off by providing nothing (other than deciding to not be a name and vitae) to base it on. IOW, to put the focus on information and keep it there.

If you disagree with the picture I've painted, with the information I've used to delineate it, fine. Disagree. As robustly as you (pl.) like. But state a competing case. Not some variation on, "You're a stinky old poopy head." A discussion board is not a tree house and we are not eleven years old.

And kindly note that I am about done pretending that a carefully reasoned presentation does not deserve an equally serious one in response.

 

But, you are making it about you and your superior understanding (which is really just silly old dogma and romantic prejudice) and ignoring what others are saying. This topic has been done to death. And the alternative opinion to yours is that projection is more subjective than objective.

And you must be using a different dictionary to us to interpret the word debunking the way you do? And if anyone here has earned the right to debunk or contest dogma then David Burgess has the credentials 100 times over.

 

 

[David Burgess]

2 hours ago, Delabo said:

Thats because he is the alpha male here.

And rightly so.

He is a very generous, nice and humble guy and gives out of his amassed knowledge freely if you ask nicely.

 

Thanks so much!  Others here have done a much better job of that than I have.

I learn from the best makers and restorers on a constant basis, and do try to expose BS for what it is. Sure, some people won't like it very much so there will be some backlash. That's just how things go, and is not in the least unexpected.

[Violadamore]

With all the references to "Grasshopper", here's a koan which, IMHO, has some bearing on the content and utility of much of this thread:

On 7/24/2015 at 2:35 PM, Violadamore said:

[Looks up from flaking small blades out of flint]  There's truly a kind of Zen to this.  Speaking of which, I have a koan for you folks.  What's this, Glasshoppa?

 

[sets her right hand on her knee palm down, holds the fingers flat while raising the heel of her palm slightly at the wrist, makes a very rude noise, and sets the palm heel back down.]

 

That, kiddies, is the sound of one hand crapping. 

 

For those who may desire to improve their minds further, I recommend study of this classic thread:

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/331940-puns-are-the-lowest-form-of-humor/

[jezzupe]

Arnt'cha glad we're not all stuck on a desert island together?  I wonder which one of us would be Simon?

[David Burgess]

13 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

Arnt'cha glad we're not all stuck on a desert island together?  I wonder which one of us would be Simon?

Which Simon on a desert island?  This one?

https://snltranscripts.jt.org/87/87hisland.phtml

[Violadamore]

25 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

Arnt'cha glad we're not all stuck on a desert island together?  I wonder which one of us would be Simon?

Relax.  This is all just an extended "dream sequence"..............   

[David Burgess]

48 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

Relax.  This is all just an extended "dream sequence"..............   

Is that you, dear?  Looks like you're doing well. So sorry for not taking the time to track you down when the rescue crew arrived at the island. They were in a big hurry, so I just had to go.

[Rue]

3 hours ago, Delabo said:

Thats because he is the alpha male here.

And rightly so.

He is a very generous, nice and humble guy and gives out of his amassed knowledge freely if you ask nicely.

 

 

2 hours ago, Blank face said:

.......

Jeepers! Now see what's happening?  We've gone from a relatively genteel bout of fisticuffs to a dog fight...

[Ganymede Piggot]

On 3/8/2017 at 5:45 AM, MANFIO said:

So, how objetive is projection?

i don't think anything in this game is objective.  i was listening to szeryng complete mozart sonatas on yt last night and i thought wow they really messed up recording this.  then i realized it was very much like live, where there's some real competition for attention between the two instruments.  you can actually tell the intent though, dynamics markings, playing in the same register or not, thickness of piano part, etc. 

i guess what the player wants is just reserve, maybe not projection.  my personal favorite instruments feel something like sound wants to leap out, which inclines you use a lot less pressing which leads to good things, incl. i think good enough projection

[Violadamore]

On 3/8/2017 at 5:45 AM, MANFIO said:

How objective is projection?

Of course that some instruments project more than others, but its evaluation seems to be a bit subjective too........................On the other hand most of the top players I've met made no point about the necessity of the  "concert room test".

It is said that the best way to evaluate projection is putting the instrument in competition with a piano or other instruments, but that is rarely done in such tests.

So, how objetive is projection?

IMHO, the most telling test, for a solo instrument, is whether you can be heard through organ music (it's like having a whole orchestra in a box), but I feel that most of the effect is in the listener's internal "sound system".  Play most of a violin concerto perfectly, who notices?  They expect it.  Just get one note wrong..................people outside smoking in the entryway are gonna somehow hear it over the traffic!   Am I right, or what?   

[Violadamore]

35 minutes ago, Rue said:

 

Jeepers! Now see what's happening?  We've gone from a relatively genteel bout of fisticuffs to a dog fight...

My money's on the pit bull with the Sawzall.