Shop Lighting

[Brandon_Williams]

This may sound like a silly question, but what kind of lighting do you use in your shop?

I just finished building a shop, and installed 8 4' LED lamps (4 2 lamp fixtures) as the main overhead lighting. For general lighting it is OK... but I have found myself squinting quite a bit for detailed tasks.

I am very new to violin making, and have been watching quite a few YouTube videos... it makes me wonder, what sort of shop lighting do you all use? I ask because I find myself getting frustrated with moving lamps around from spot to spot, but I noticed in a lot of videos I've watched that the shops were lit with lamp light only.  Is this how real luthiers work, or is this simply an effect people use when making their YouTube videos?

I have some spotlight type fixtures that I've contemplated rigging up into an overhead array, but decided to hold off until I had a better idea of what might work better.  I was in a print shop just the other day and saw a cool overhead "halo" that encircled the working surface of the prep table... I thought that might be a decent idea.  I'm open to suggestions (pictures welcome)... what do you advise?

[John Mason]

Well you're 1 violin up on me, but what I would want is to be able to have some level of shadow and movable lights are probably the only way to get it outside of natural light from a window.  I love leds, so much better than flouros but I have to believe that for carving you need to see the relief/shadow.  I do however find I need more light than I did when I was your age.  I caught myself the other day sharpening a plane iron in near darkness and only really wanted extra light when looking to see how polished I had gotten the bevel.

[Brandon_Williams]

Thanks John,

Imagree, the movable light seems to be very handy for casting shadows. I appreciate what you said about my age, but I find myself squinting and holding things up to different angles far more often now. I wasn't sure if it was just the natural progression of age, or if this type of work was just more exacting (a little of both I suppose). 

I cant say enough good about LEDs in terms of efficiency and lumen output, actually I deal with those discussions quite often in my day to day, but I still wonder if there is a better setup for making violins...?

[PASEWICZ]

In a violin shop situation there is really little need for overhead lights; task lighting allows you to see more by the use of shadows.

These Luxo LC-1a combination lamps are what we have at all of our benches.  The dual light sources (dual color) also help with touch-up.

https://www.luxo-lighting.com/SPD/luxo-lc1a-bk-luxo-lc-series-combo-22w-fluorescent-and-a-compact-fluorescent-bulb-task-light--lc-light--45--clamp-mount--black--80000542-1483734976.jsp

[violins88]

I like this one. Pasewicz is the master. But these are cheap and useful. If you make a little shade, of tin foil or thin aluminum, it helps get the kind of light that shows the shadows on the plates.

Although the neck is not long enough to move the light very far. But, once again, they.  Are cheap.

[Jim Bress]

Not sure where to find it, but I would like something like this.    Picture from Google images.

[FiddleDoug]

These "architect desk lamps" are what I have. Very affordable, and you can put either a warm white, or daylight white LED lamp in them to match your light color needs. You can also pick the wattage  you need. Since I also do other working, and woodworking in the shop, I also have plenty of 4 ft. LED tubes.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Globe-Electric-32-in-Multi-Joint-Metal-Clamp-Black-Desk-Lamp-56963/205139331?cm_mmc=Shopping|THD|DigitalDecor|google||_pkw__pmt__product_205139331&mid=sf50WSK5W|dc_mtid_8903yuu57254_pcrid_142836471302_pkw__pmt__product_205139331_slid_&gclid=CLS27K68xNICFYmPswodxkcHaA

[Rue]

That's what I have on my workbench too.

[Carl Stross]

One should always check how much UV these modern lights be they LED, fluorescents or compacts,  put out. A quick way to do that is to look into the reflection of said light on the back of a DVD - makes a passable diffraction grating, and compare with normal incandescent. One can also buy a UV meter. Once I tested some of those with a UV meter I stopped using but incandescents powered at slightly lower voltage.

[Michael_Molnar]

Lots of great ideas here. Lighting is key to see surface details and varnish colors. I feel you cannot have too many lamps.

I also have a UV inspection lamp for exorcising glue ghosts. Out damn spot.

 

[Luis Martins]

Be aware that LED light isn't the best for color rendering!!!!

LED lights with color rendering index below 85 do really bad things to our color perception!!!

[John Mason]

How good a black light is required?  Will those black light bulbs work ok for finding errant glue residues?

[Luis Martins]

 

2 hours ago, carl stross said:

One should always check how much UV these modern lights be they LED, fluorescents or compacts,  put out. A quick way to do that is to look into the reflection of said light on the back of a DVD - makes a passable diffraction grating, and compare with normal incandescent. One can also buy a UV meter. Once I tested some of those with a UV meter I stopped using but incandescents powered at slightly lower voltage.

Led light has zero UV emission, unless you buy an UV LED.

"white" light produced by LED is done with a blue LED coated with a yellow phosphor film. The combination of the blue wavelength peak and yellow phosphorescence results in a light that is apparently white, but with zero UV.

Color rendering

[Luis Martins]

At apx 7:40 in this video you may see the actual graphics of the "white" LED light https://youtu.be/2Aa6hyo8TpM versus color temperature.

Nothing beats incandescent or halogen in light quality at reasonable prices.

[Carl Stross]

4 minutes ago, Luis Martins said:

 

Led light has zero UV emission, unless you buy an UV LED.

"white" light produced by LED is done with a blue LED coated with a yellow phosphor film. The combination of the blue wavelength peak and yellow phosphorescence results in a light that is apparently white, but with zero UV.

Color rendering

My UV meter disagrees and so do these people here :

http://www.nouvir.com/index.cfm?ref=90200&ref2=9

So do the datasheets from Philips.

While brand name LEDs are well made and emit limited or at least predictable amounts of UV, LEDs are probably the most pirated semiconductor at the moment and some of those are really nasty.

 

[Rue]

Dunno if this is true or just the latest concern, but worth being aware of:

http://www.livescience.com/31949-led-lights-eye-damage.html

[Luis Martins]

2 minutes ago, carl stross said:

My UV meter disagrees and so do these people here :

http://www.nouvir.com/index.cfm?ref=90200&ref2=9

So do the datasheets from Philips.

While brand name LEDs are well made and emit limited or at least predictable amounts of UV, LEDs are probably the most pirated semiconductor at the moment and some of those are really nasty.

 

I developed and manufactured hundreds of commercial and application specific luminaries using LEDS for the past 15 years.

ALL quality LED manufacturers use blue peak emission in the 435 to 450nm with a Q factor larger than 80. This means, and you can confirm it in all reputable manufacturers datasheets like Osram, Phillips, Cree, etc., that there is zero emission below the 400nm waveleght.

Most of the low cost UV meters use tinted films instead of dichroic filters, so in most cases they get readings above 400nm and consider them as UVA.

The problem is that most people test common Epistar LED based systems, and Epistar LEDs do have 5 to 10% emission in the UVA region. Epistar is the main LED manufacturer in China.

There are in fact some manufactures like Phillips and Osram that include 1 to 5% UVA in some LEDs but these are specifically designed for food display applications in order to improve the freshness appearance of the products. These LEDs are not used in standard residential bulbs and are only available in strip lights.

[Carl Stross]

44 minutes ago, Luis Martins said:

 

Led light has zero UV emission, unless you buy an UV LED.

"white" light produced by LED is done with a blue LED coated with a yellow phosphor film. The combination of the blue wavelength peak and yellow phosphorescence results in a light that is apparently white, but with zero UV.

Color rendering

 

12 minutes ago, Luis Martins said:

I developed and manufactured hundreds of commercial and application specific luminaries using LEDS for the past 15 years.

ALL quality LED manufacturers use blue peak emission in the 435 to 450nm with a Q factor larger than 80. This means, and you can confirm it in all reputable manufacturers datasheets like Osram, Phillips, Cree, etc., that there is zero emission below the 400nm waveleght.

Most of the low cost UV meters use tinted films instead of dichroic filters, so in most cases they get readings above 400nm and consider them as UVA.

The problem is that most people test common Epistar LED based systems, and Epistar LEDs do have 5 to 10% emission in the UVA region. Epistar is the main LED manufacturer in China.

There are in fact some manufactures like Phillips and Osram that include 1 to 5% UVA in some LEDs but these are specifically designed for food display applications in order to improve the freshness appearance of the products. These LEDs are not used in standard residential bulbs and are only available in strip lights.

Well, it seems you need to make up your mind. 

ALL LEDs emit some amount of UV. Incandescent bulbs emit some, too. The QM inside just works like that. No LED I tested was UV free. Some had very little and some had A LOT. Testing was done with my UV meter which is not some Amazon trinket but a proper spectrophotometer. My suggestion is that given the habit of chain stores to market their own heavily discounted branded products made by we know who and where, one should exercise some caution. Cataracts are a nuisance.

[Carl Stross]

25 minutes ago, Rue said:

Dunno if this is true or just the latest concern, but worth being aware of:

http://www.livescience.com/31949-led-lights-eye-damage.html

That's plenty true and known for 60 years.

[franciscus]

8 minutes ago, carl stross said:

That's plenty true and known for 60 years.

60?

[Luis Martins]

3 minutes ago, carl stross said:

 

Well, it seems you need to make up your mind. 

ALL LEDs emit some amount of UV. Incandescent bulbs emit some, too. The QM inside just works like that. No LED I tested was UV free. Some had very little and some had A LOT. Testing was done with my UV meter which is not some Amazon trinket but a proper spectrophotometer. My suggestion is that given the habit of chain stores to market their own heavily discounted branded products made by we know who and where, one should exercise some caution. Cataracts are a nuisance.

My point is:

Discount brand LED light generaly have >5% UVA.

Quality LED Residential light from reputable manufacturers have <1% UVA (far less than fluorescent, HID, Incandescent, Plasma discharge, etc)

Special LED types designed for food display have >5% UVA and >2%UVA but they are not for general lighting purposes.

IMHO <1% in the 395 to 400nm region is zero UV emission since we are not talking about  50K Lumens light sources.

Unless you have something like this equipment you wont get an accurate reading.

[Luis Martins]

54 minutes ago, Rue said:

Dunno if this is true or just the latest concern, but worth being aware of:

http://www.livescience.com/31949-led-lights-eye-damage.html

True! And a major issue in LED lighting! Due to the small point source with lots of energy, when compared with fluorescent or incandescent, a diffusion device is mandatory in most cases.

LED light is directional and 60% power is concentrated in a 30 deg angle from the main axis. direct frontal exposure will cause damage.

[Carl Stross]

17 minutes ago, franciscus said:

60?

ooops ! You caught me here . It's actually  78. Time flies...

[Carl Stross]

6 minutes ago, Luis Martins said:

My point is:

Discount brand LED light generaly have >5% UVA.

Quality LED Residential light from reputable manufacturers have <1% UVA (far less than fluorescent, HID, Incandescent, Plasma discharge, etc)

Special LED types designed for food display have >5% UVA and >2%UVA but they are not for general lighting purposes.

IMHO <1% in the 395 to 400nm region is zero UV emission since we are not talking about  50K Lumens light sources.

Unless you have something like this equipment you wont get an accurate reading.

Well, what you said initially is   " Led light has zero UV emission, unless you buy an UV LED. "

Then, you changed to     "IMHO <1% in the 395 to 400nm region is zero UV emission"

In my book 1% is not zero by any stretch and there are A LOT of "aggravating circumstances" on top of that. All I suggested was to exercise some caution. Violin tinkerers use strong light and for close up work and that's where even small amounts of UV matter. One LED hinging on the ceiling is irrelevant.

And no, I don't need THAT to measure the percentage of UV light. And anyway, I have way better than that.

[Luis Martins]

Another aspect of LED light is the interference with the circadian rhythm, since the strong 450nm emission affects the retinal ganglion cells that are extremely sensitive in the 470 to 480nm leading to a state of alertness.