Unknown Bow Up For Discussion

[GeorgeH]

 

27 minutes ago, martin swan said:

 

Since I can't see any replacement tip on the photos I would have to conclude it was "well done"! Or are we talking about the tip of the ivory face, which does look like an addition ...

It seems to me that the adjuster is a perfect fit, and if the screw is too short, perhaps the screw is a replacement? I have to say it doesn't look short to me, and you say the bow works very well?

Vestiges of a brand - don't think so.

However, if the thumb projection hasn't been modified, then we can rule out Knopf once and for all.

 

Yes, the ivory tip was replaced at some point and he said he did not think it was smoothed off around the edges very well.

It does not look like the vestiges of a brand to me either, and I think it would be unusual for a bow to branded on both sides.

The adjuster fits really well, so maybe the just the screw was replaced. It certainly works perfectly. As I mentioned,  eyelet screw looks like it was filed, so maybe both were repaired/replaced at some point.

Take a look at some of the Christian Wilhelm Knopf bows here:

https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/browse-the-archive/makers/maker/?Maker_ID=1022

Could it be one of his? His frogs have longer thumb projections than Heinrich Carl Knopf's. 

[Blank face]

Your bow is much too young for a CW Knopf IMO, and it's featuring the typical styistic mix of the late 19th in my eyes.

I tried to explain, why name dropping might be useless in this matters. The only chance could be, that Grünke or Schmidt have something like this in their records.

[GeorgeH]

Thanks, Blank Face, I appreciate your additions to this discussion very much, and I am learning a lot. 

When I look at the first 3 violin bows of CW Knopf in the Tarisio link, I see three distinctly different heads and frogs. Is that also a stylistic mix? Maybe they aren't all CW Knopf bows, either. But to my eye, the frogs all have longer thumb projections than Heinrich Carl Knopf's frogs and look more similar to the frog on my bow. Which is why I mentioned that page.

But, given shear ratio of number of bows from unknown makers over the number of identifiable makers, the probability is high that this bow is a very good unbranded German bow of unknown maker. I don't know how you'd date it, unless the head is a Voirin copy as you suggest, and then it would have to be late 19th century. Otherwise, what else is there to go by? The frog and the head of this bow don't resemble the Pfretzschner frog and head, to my eye.

Is there a possibility, too, that it could be French instead of German, even without pins in the adjuster? Is there something else particularly MK about it?

[Blank face]

IMO there's some kind of resemblance to the "old Knopf" style within the head of your bow, but mixed up with the more "modern" french/Voirin style, the same with the frog - that's why I wrote about typical stylistic mix of the period. The Pfrtezschner, of course, is very different in many aspects, I posted it more as a sort of comparison, how the style of german bows changed in this period. Maybe this wasn't clear and more confusing than clarifying.

All this is not more than an interpretation of the photos, and to be taken with a spoon full of salt. In this way it's not impossible that it's a french bow with a german replacement adjuster, but unlikely IMO. The round (or even octogonal) diameter is another evidence, many french bows tend to have a more oval shape.

Another question: Are there assembly marks (scratched roman numbers) at the metal slide? The photo is out of focus, it looks as if there was a mark like "//". This would be another point, cause there are only some french bows of very big shops featuring these numbers, in opposite to german, where they are much more common.

[GeorgeH]

Thanks for the further explanation, Blank Face. I am attaching some better pictures of the frog and slide. I cleaned the slide up a bit, and I don't see any assembly marks. 

[filimonovfineviolins]

I just happen to stumble on this thread and the bow in question.

Yes, in my view there is the prevalent Knopf style in some of the areas.

But this is the work of a lesser known Knopf.........August Moritz Knopf (1857-1899).

Son of Karl Moritz Knopf (who was Heinrich's cousin).

After learning the family business, he made bows  for R. WEICHOLD, Grimm, Louis Lowenthal, and from around 1889 went to Moscow worked for Jul. H. Zimmermann. He died in 1899.

[fiddlecollector]

Sounds like a bit of a sweeping statement of fact. Sounds like you have been talking to Schmidt. There are hundreds or more likely thousands of these Knopf type bows and only recently has there been a splurge of Moritz Knopf bows appearing in shops and auctions.  I feel its a bit spectulative !

[jacobsaunders]

44 minutes ago, fiddlecollector said:

Sounds like a bit of a sweeping statement of fact. Sounds like you have been talking to Schmidt. There are hundreds or more likely thousands of these Knopf type bows and only recently has there been a splurge of Moritz Knopf bows appearing in shops and auctions.  I feel its a bit spectulative !

Full Agreement! I wrote similar here:

 

[Blank face]

To establish and identify the work of a "lesser known" maker from this particular region it would be necessary to refer to some undiscussed reference examples. It was explained how rare branded bows (by the maker, not a dealer) are from this origin. The Grünke book relies in such cases on bows kept by families, orchestras or museums.

Of course there seems to be a sort of inflation of Karl Moritz Knopf certified bows during the last years, not only in my eyes very different to each other, what doesn't support the reliability. To find a son of this already discussable maker and ascribe bows to his oeuvre would require more of these unchallenged references, or it could sound like randomly dropping names to otherwise unidentifiable products of trade.

[filimonovfineviolins]

My assessment is based on research and experience. And I put my name on my posts.

I have been researching this subject for a while as I am working on new research regarding  the workshops of Knopf and Kittel.

And I have new data that will get published soon.

You can view my previous new research on Giulio Degani, Jago Peternella and Roger Nestor Chittolini on Tarisio's Carteggio section.

The Knopf dynasty was  influential in their day and taught makers such as  Christian  Gottlob Nurnberger (who trained with C.W. Knopf), J.C. Suss (who learned from C.F.W. Knopf)

August Rau who had studied with Wilhelm Knopf in Dresden and there were plenty more.

Recent discoveries led to the understanding of the fabulous bows by J. Christoph Nurnberger, most of which were branded L. Neuner. Ten years ago, these bows were thought of as being made by Heinrich Knopf.

So as the dedicated few keep digging, the collective knowledge grows.

[Blank face]

1 hour ago, filimonovfineviolins said:

 

I have been researching this subject for a while as I am working on new research regarding  the workshops of Knopf and Kittel.

And I have new data that will get published soon.

 

Therefore were the questions. Would be interesting to learn what was the outcome of research, the sources and to see reference examples.

 

[GeorgeH]

@filimonovfineviolins

Thank you very much for your comments on this bow. It was in the case of a violin that I purchased, and it is a wonderful player. Of the bows that I play with it is second only to my Voirin, and it has become my daily player. I am interested in any additional information that you might have about it, and would be happy to post additional picture views, if you would like.

[filimonovfineviolins]

It's always best to study the bow in person.

Btw George, what is the weight of your bow?

Are you located in Seattle?

If so, I'll be happy to welcome you with your bow.

Btw, when my article is finished, I will let you guys know when it is due for release. 

 

[GeorgeH]

6 minutes ago, filimonovfineviolins said:

Are you located in Seattle?

No, east coast, so looking forward to reading your article.

[filimonovfineviolins]

Occasionally I visit NEW YORK.

I can let you know when I'm there.

[Blank face]

8 hours ago, filimonovfineviolins said:

 

Btw, when my article is finished, I will let you guys know when it is due for release. 

 

Too sad that we'll have to wait, especially because there are so many bows showing similar Knopf-reminding features, waiting to be identified.

 

[jacobsaunders]

14 hours ago, filimonovfineviolins said:

My assessment is based on research and experience. And I put my name on my posts.

I have been researching this subject for a while as I am working on new research regarding  the workshops of Knopf and Kittel.

And I have new data that will get published soon.

You can view my previous new research on Giulio Degani, Jago Peternella and Roger Nestor Chittolini on Tarisio's Carteggio section.

The Knopf dynasty was  influential in their day and taught makers such as  Christian  Gottlob Nurnberger (who trained with C.W. Knopf), J.C. Suss (who learned from C.F.W. Knopf)

August Rau who had studied with Wilhelm Knopf in Dresden and there were plenty more.

Recent discoveries led to the understanding of the fabulous bows by J. Christoph Nurnberger, most of which were branded L. Neuner. Ten years ago, these bows were thought of as being made by Heinrich Knopf.

So as the dedicated few keep digging, the collective knowledge grows.

I am very much in favour of “research” and sceptic about the received wisdom we otherwise use (most of which is second or third hand from Lütgendorff's re. Markneukirchen slightly superficial enquiries from the end of the 19^th, C). Indeed I have spent weeks myself in archives, and made great efforts to learn the “kurent” German handwriting of the time. In the meantime, much of these archives are digitally available, albeit by far not all, and one no longer has to get all dusty. One can learn how the social structures of the time worked, who inherited things from whom, who became custody for orphaned children, who owned which house, and much else.

 

However, in such a tight knit community, where 254 individuals were officially recorded as bow makers (not counting their helpers), where many, if not most of this community was more or less related to each other, and where the bows were hardly ever signed by the maker, or when signed at all, most often by a dealer, one is reliant on the desperately rare, surely authentic items to dare to ascribe a bow to a particular individual. The knowledge, who was who's brother in law, or who lived just around the corner from who, etc. doesn’t seem to be a fat lot of help when trying to sort out a heap of variously worn old German Silver or Silver bows.

[Violadamore]

18 hours ago, filimonovfineviolins said:

Occasionally I visit NEW YORK.

You poor thing.  Deepest sympathy.

8 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

I am very much in favour of “research” and sceptic about the received wisdom we otherwise use................The knowledge, who was who's brother in law, or who lived just around the corner from who, etc. doesn’t seem to be a fat lot of help when trying to sort out a heap of variously worn old German Silver or Silver bows.

[Envisions a sumptuous Renaissance-style painting of Clio weeping at the foot of an Everest of "rubbish"]

Mere scholarship is inadequate to sort out this mess.  Considering contemporaneous US mail-order catalog offerings, I'd not be surprised if, for every Markie shared with the world (and we know there were millions), we were enriched by two bows of equal quality.  Have you considered the economics of opening a 1-900 psychic hotline for guessing provenances? 

[vathek]

It it possible those marks are from some odd ball bow holder, as found in some instrument cases?

[GennadyF.]

On 2/19/2018 at 4:24 PM, GeorgeH said:

@filimonovfineviolins

Thank you very much for your comments on this bow. It was in the case of a violin that I purchased, and it is a wonderful player. Of the bows that I play with it is second only to my Voirin, and it has become my daily player. I am interested in any additional information that you might have about it, and would be happy to post additional picture views, if you would like.

Hello everyone and  GeorgeH,

Hope you are all well.  I came across this thread and was reminded...about a bow (August Moritz Knopf) I thought I would share. It's a A.M. Knopf bow that was certified by H.C. Schmidt in Dresden. Which seems to be very similar to yours. Also the marks on both sides just below the leather looks like perhaps the  jig was too tight when it was re-haired long ago, or perhaps it had some kind of clamp there. It's unfortunate. But, there are those who do more harm than good when it comes to re-hairs.

Anyway, I've been busy writing in the last two years, about Sartory and his legal battles against trademark infringement in the February 2019 issue of STRAD. Napoleonic Bows June 2020 issue of STRAD and currently Carlo Bisiach and his US connections November 2020 issue STRAD magazine. 

All the Best,

Gennady

 

[Blank face]

11 hours ago, GennadyF. said:

I came across this thread and was reminded...about a bow (August Moritz Knopf) I thought I would share. It's a A.M. Knopf bow that was certified by H.C. Schmidt in Dresden. Which seems to be very similar to yours.

One should consider that the matter of August Moritz Knopf is challenged between German experts. I have no clue how an AM Knopf should look like,  but the certified examples seem to look so different to each other that (for me) it would be hard to decide about anything based on these as reference. And BTW, I don't see much affinities between your (rather nice) bow and the OP.

We talked these further up in this thread before, in case you missed it. But I'm supposing you are the same person anyway?

[GennadyF.]

On 10/30/2020 at 6:26 AM, Blank face said:

One should consider that the matter of August Moritz Knopf is challenged between German experts. I have no clue how an AM Knopf should look like,  but the certified examples seem to look so different to each other that (for me) it would be hard to decide about anything based on these as reference. And BTW, I don't see much affinities between your (rather nice) bow and the OP.

We talked these further up in this thread before, in case you missed it. But I'm supposing you are the same person anyway?

If one studies the bows of the Knopf workshop from C.W. Knopf to Henry R. Knopf and their disciples, one begins to understand their characteristics and evolution from early 1800's to 20th century.

 

[BassClef]

On 2/19/2018 at 8:36 PM, filimonovfineviolins said:

It's always best to study the bow in person.

Btw George, what is the weight of your bow?

Are you located in Seattle?

If so, I'll be happy to welcome you with your bow.

Btw, when my article is finished, I will let you guys know when it is due for release. 

 

Has your data been published?

[Isaac Salchow]

I would like to see the bow in person, if you’re ever in New York I’d be happy to look. 

 

Edited November 7, 2020 by Isaac Salchow

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Hello Isaac!  Welcome!