Friedrich Hoyer ?

[antero]

Greetings to everyone,

I would very much appreciate any information on Friedrich Hoyer - a maker from our notorious Klingenthal-Mkn area; 18/19 century.

Mr Dilworth does not seem to know that much about him - perhaps do you?

I am not publishing that many photos, as this is not an ID inquiery.

But if you disagree regarding ID , please let me know...

[Blank face]

Carl Friedrich Hoyer 1765-1845, Klingenthal.

The instrument looks similar to the examples in the Seidl book, label (from what is possible to see) seems to be right.

[jacobsaunders]

Last year there was an exibition, and a book, to commemorate the 300^th anniversary of the founding of the Klingenthal violin makers “Innung” (guild). From page 48 too 52 of the book,there is an essay on the Klingenthal Maker, Andreas Hoyer and his 6 violin making sons, writen by Anna Karoline Meinel (in German). (Johann) Friedrich (son #3) was born on 4.4.1738 and died on 13.09.1815, both in Klingenthal.

[Blank face]

Houston, we have a problem

Zoebisch is listing not less than 3 Johann Friedrich and 2 Carl Friedrich, all between 1780 ca. and 1860.

I mentioned recently, that they had a very limited choice of christian names there.

 

[jandepora]

Antero, could you post more pictures? If you have of the inner work, I would really appreciate.
Not so far time ago I posted a violin and it could seem like a Hoyer family.

thank you

[antero]

Please find few more photos.

Just a couple of the exteriour and few more of the inside. I did not repeat the remnants of the (probably) original label on the treble C-bout, , indicating to Friedrich Hoyer and Klingenthal. Fact, that it apparently was repared by Fritz Zankl in Leitmeritz (Litomerice) in Bohemia 1921 adds not much to what is already known. Inside pictures ( I made a 360 deg circle) show 4 blocks and endless cleats all over the place + repairs on both upper bouts. It is honestly the most heavily repaired violin I have ever seen. The back shows that it must literally have been into pieces at the time.

Exposed wood (button) looks dark(ish) - perhaps pear, again?

All comments are welcome, and – as Zoebisch is proposing so many Fritz-es – perhaps some detail of the construction allows you to attribute it to some earlier or later one?

[baroqueplayer]

Hello I have a Friedrich Hoyer too...1802

I'd like to know too some information. It has a really nice sound.

Anyone has an idea about the prices of Hoyer now?

Thanks!

P

[jacobsaunders]

I would say that the construction of your fiddle is commensurate with the 1^st half of the 19^th C: The blocks, as you would find if you removed the back, are after-the-fact ones, glued on later, which do not go right into the corner of the rib cage. Originally it would have had a so called through neck, which you can read about if you comprehend the new Mn search function. The scroll has sadly lost most of it's varnish, assuming it (the scroll) is original. One wonders if this could be the fault of Herr Zankl, which just goes to show that it is daft to stick repair labels into fiddles (you get blamed for everything!). The label, for once is in the original place on the inside rib, and hasn't been moved to the “proper” place by some busy-body. Overall, it will require quite a heap of pixie dust.

 

Baroque Player's is rather nice

[antero]

I quite agree - the baroqueplayers' instrument is very different and definitely on the positiive side!

And yes, the scroll has in my opinion been stripped much later than herr Zankl resurrected this one from the rubble in1921.

But again, I was in the first place more interested in the maker himsef –, and likely date – than in this sad and damaged instrument.

It will most likely end up on the wall or in the furnace, rather than restored.

[baroqueplayer]

Just to have a comparison of the scroll: is in harmony with the ff holes (sorry for the bad quality of the picture!)

Anyone knows the value of those kind of instruments?

 

P

 

[antero]

Thank you very much JS, and  to everyone else for your input !

Baroque Player - is there anything else in your label; does it indicate also to Klingenthal or ...?

I found one reference that he worked in Nürnberg for a while and labelled instruments accordingly.

[baroqueplayer]

Hello Antero, 

only Klingenthal on my label (1802)

P

[antero]

Can't say anything about the value, but these scrolls are really rather different. Considering that they must come from the same time window of ca 20? years - one wonders, which of these two could be replacement?

This scroll shape I have seen before - the last I remember was on a violin carrying a label of (and presented as by) Joannes Jais – the same era but different location and making school.

[Blank face]

The shape of the scroll above is very typical for Vogtland work of the period, but has absolutely nothing to do with any Mittenwald instrument (which Johannes Jais was most probably dealing with). A bit untypical for the Hoyer family, which had usually an elongated pegbox and a quite small scroll, but it could be bought in from a "Halsmacher", what won't be surprising.

Legends, that some of the Vogtland makers worked elsewhere in bigger cities, are both common and usually nothing but attempts to make their products more interesting for naive buyers - the Fickers and others claimed to be from Cremona, for instance, Voigt from Prague etc. Factually they didn't even make the otherwise obligatory journeyman years, but paid a certain sum of money to the guild as a substitute, and stayed at home (where the young men were urgently needed for the field work, which was part of the income for most of their families). For this reason it took a very long time till stylistic tendencies and working methods from other, more open-minded regions found their way there. OTOH, they had also clever ways to escape military service and other backlashes, which devasted other violin making regions. All this can be found, unfortunately in german language only, in the books of Zoebisch and Seidl, including written period documents.

If one of those makers ever reached Nürnberg or similar cities, than as a dealer and wholesaler of Vogtland made violins only.

[antero]

Thank yo BF!

I had no idea of the provenance of that slightly elongated scroll type. As I remember now, that tentative Jais had many repairs in scroll and neck area, so the scroll could have been replaced there as well (it otherwise did look Mittenwaldish).

I think, the suggestion that F Hoyer was somehow active in Nürnberg, came from a quotation, originally by John D:

HOYER, Friedrich Worked circa. 1785-1820 Klingenthal & Nuremberg Germany. Undistinguished Tyrolean-style work with golden-brown varnish. Friedrich Hoyer / in Nürnberg, 1787 Friedrich Hoyer / in Klingenthal. 1817

But as one may learn from your post earlier - it is not clear which of so many Fridrich-s are we actually talking about. For Carl Friedrich the dates could work.

[deans]

I was thinking this one was a Hoyer of some sort:

https://t2-auctions.com/auctions/lot/?csid=2198519808&cpid=3421061120&filter_key=d5c60865a6a1d98f714a38c199e0aa11

[antero]

It definetely has the scroll that is typical to Vogtland, as said BF above.

Amberg is not definitely Vogtland but not that far away either...not that labels mean much.

[jacobsaunders]

Thumhard of Amberg has nothing to do with the Vogtländische tradition whatsoever, but the Niederbayrische. He is close too, and easy to confuse with Buchstetter of Regensburg, who you can read all about in great detail in this thread. http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/329708-gabriel-david-buchstetter/

The Vogtländische Viola with fake Thumhard label at Tarisio is a case of the Tarisians taking the sublime to the ridiculous

[deans]

5 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Thumhard of Amberg has nothing to do with the Vogtländische tradition whatsoever, but the Niederbayrische. He is close too, and easy to confuse with Buchstetter of Regensburg, who you can read all about in great detail in this thread. http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/329708-gabriel-david-buchstetter/

The Vogtländische Viola with fake Thumhard label at Tarisio is a case of the Tarisians taking the sublime to the ridiculous

I don't think anyone thought for a minute that it was a Thumhard. Looks like a Hoyer to me, that's why I posted it on this thread.

[jacobsaunders]

18 minutes ago, deans said:

I don't think anyone thought for a minute that it was a Thumhard. Looks like a Hoyer to me, that's why I posted it on this thread.

The trouble with saying “it looks like a Hoyer to me” is that you will have to find a signed certain Hoyer (there were lots of Hoyers) to back up your assertion.

After all, why not “It looks like a Meisel to me”, or like a Lorenz etc.

[deans]

52 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

The trouble with saying “it looks like a Hoyer to me” is that you will have to find a signed certain Hoyer (there were lots of Hoyers) to back up your assertion.

After all, why not “It looks like a Meisel to me”, or like a Lorenz etc.

I have seen several Hoyers that were presented as authentic, I don't have one myself. Of course these experts could certainly have been wrong. And I certainly understand that there were many makers producing very similar instruments. But after a while you can start seeing common features that push you one way or another.

I could say "it looks like a Meisel" or some other Klingon, but I'll take the plunge put my bet on "looks like a Hoyer"

There's another thread one this board right now where you say "reminds me of Strnad school" I'd be just as careful about that bet....

[Valerie Cloud]

I have a violin that was purchased for me 41 years ago.  My mother keeps telling me "it's worth a fortune."  (I'm skeptical, because she frequently WAY overvalues her possessions).  Anyway, it's hard to see the tag, but it appears to say  "Andreas Hoyer, VIolinmacher, Klingenthal (sp?), followed by a 3 or 4 digit number.  Is this number likely to be a date or were they numbered?

Edited October 27, 2019 by Valerie Cloud

[Blank face]

5 hours ago, Valerie Cloud said:

I have a violin that was purchased for me 41 years ago.  My mother keeps telling me "it's worth a fortune."  (I'm skeptical, because she frequently WAY overvalues her possessions).  Anyway, it's hard to see the tag, but it appears to say  "Andreas Hoyer, VIolinmacher, Klingenthal (sp?), followed by a 3 or 4 digit number.  Is this number likely to be a date or were they numbered?

Due to the circumstance that even this label was reproduced many times it is necessary to see photos of both instrument and label to decide if it's genuine or not. Usually these number were telling the year of making.

Unfortunately this kind of instrument, even if real, isn't worth a fortune by far, depending of the condition in the best case a humble month's wage.