Is it worth refurbishing Josef Kloz in Mittenwald 1760?

[ozustun]

Bought this violin from ebay for £400, it is a "Josef Kloz in Mittenwald 1760" - antique 4/4 violin, i am only a beginner, and this will be my first violin. (if i refurbish it)

The wood is still in very nice antique condition with some light scores to the surface, some little chips also to the edges as you would expect with a used antique item. Also looks like there has possibly been a few little pieces of wood to the rim edges that may have been replaced or repaired, although I cannot confirm this, perhaps that is just the way it was made? Violin will need restrung and possibly may benefit from a clean and polish. 

is it worth it ? how much would it cost me extra?

Thank you in advance!

[franciscus]

I do not know who made this violin, where or when, even it is looks to me as a regular product from Markneukirchen from the end of 19th C. What I see is the broken button and the nails intended to keep the block and back together. As a hobby luthier, when I see such a thing, I give up. For 400 GBP, I'm sure you could make much better deal.

Edited January 22, 2017 by franciscus
tippfehler: not neck, but the back

[MarkBouquet]

Don't tell me. Let me guess. This seller doesn't accept returns. It's not worth restoring, and the seller is laughing all the way to the bank. Why didn't you ask for advice here before you blew 400£ on this. If you can return it, do it.

[Jeff Jetson]

Welcome to Mastronet Ozustun,

I thought that Lyndon always said to use PayPal on an eBay purchase because if the item was misrepresented and not in the condition the ad stated that PayPal would reverse the funding when the item was returned to the seller. I would try to return this instrument and get your money back. 

 

If you really like and want this violin then you will have to take it to violin shop and have some repairs done to it in addition to a new properly fit bridge and other basic set up items that should be done to it. As a guess you will be paying at least another 400 to get this up to snuff.

 I do wonder why people can be so reckless with their money sometimes, but I must admit to have made my share of financial mistakes when I was younger. 

I would like to see pictures of this violin again if you do decide  to keep it and have it repaired. Good luck with it. 

 

 

[Trenchworker]

I am not sure from your posting if you bought this violin to try your hand at repairing, or you will have someone repair it.  If you intend to repair it yourself, it will take you a while to learn some techniques.  One of the most difficult is repairing the button, which Franciscus points out is broken.  It will require opening the violin and making a plaster of paris mold of the back as well as grafting on a new button.   I see some long cracks on the spruce top, which can be repaired with glue and cleats once you have opened the top.  I do not see any cracks in the areas of the sound post or the bass bar, which is good, but you need to inspect it carefully after you open the top.  The peg box does not seem to have any cracks, either, but you need to inspect it more carefully.  The edges have missing pieces, but likely have no effect on the tone so the violin can be played without repairing the edges unless you want to do a thorough job.  I can not tell anything about the alignment of the fingerboard from the photos.  As pointed out above by others, you need to make a new bridge, put new strings, and possibly new pegs and/or peg bushings if any of the pegs are misshapen or cracked or wobbly in their pegholes.  And of course, cleaning of the surfaces.  I don't suggest re-varnishing it, as it will lose its aged look and lose some of its authenticity, regardless of what kind of violin it is. 

Perhaps you paid more than the violin is worth, or more than you should have, but this is your first experience and if you are enthusiastic about it, you will learn much from repairing it.  From what I can tell from the pictures, it is only the broken button that would discourage me, for example; the other repairs are more common, but will still take you a while to learn.  And when you succeed, you'll be proud of yourself.  Echoing Jet Jetson, good luck with it.

[ozustun]

7 hours ago, franciscus said:

I do not know who made this violin, where or when, even it is looks to me as a regular product from Markneukirchen from the end of 19th C. What I see is the broken button and the nails intended to keep the block and back together. As a hobby luthier, when I see such a thing, I give up. For 400 GBP, I'm sure you could make much better deal.

thank you so much for your reply, i managed to retract my bid. The seller was really not pleased. As someone experienced, could you point me towards the right direction, or even the right violin you see fit for a beginner? i dont mind the price or location, below are some links, i want to thank you for your time and saving me from buying the wrong instrument, i will not forget your kindness.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/frcfra2011?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FINE-OLD-FRENCH-STRADIUARIUS-VIOLIN-see-VIDEO-ANTIQUE-922-/311783631094

[ozustun]

7 hours ago, clearsky said:

Don't tell me. Let me guess. This seller doesn't accept returns. It's not worth restoring, and the seller is laughing all the way to the bank. Why didn't you ask for advice here before you blew 400£ on this. If you can return it, do it.

thank you so much for your reply, i managed to retract my bid. The seller was really not pleased. As someone experienced, could you point me towards the right direction, or even the right violin you see fit for a beginner? i dont mind the price or location, below are some links, i want to thank you for your time and saving me from buying the wrong instrument, i will not forget your kindness.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/frcfra2011?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FINE-OLD-FRENCH-STRADIUARIUS-VIOLIN-see-VIDEO-ANTIQUE-922-/311783631094

[ozustun]

3 hours ago, Jeff Jetson said:

Welcome to Mastronet Ozustun,

I thought that Lyndon always said to use PayPal on an eBay purchase because if the item was misrepresented and not in the condition the ad stated that PayPal would reverse the funding when the item was returned to the seller. I would try to return this instrument and get your money back. 

 

If you really like and want this violin then you will have to take it to violin shop and have some repairs done to it in addition to a new properly fit bridge and other basic set up items that should be done to it. As a guess you will be paying at least another 400 to get this up to snuff.

 I do wonder why people can be so reckless with their money sometimes, but I must admit to have made my share of financial mistakes when I was younger. 

I would like to see pictures of this violin again if you do decide  to keep it and have it repaired. Good luck with it. 

 

 

You are very kind and wise, i was very naive indeed.  after reading your comment i managed to retract my bid. The seller was really very unhappy. As someone experienced, could you point me towards the right direction, or even the right violin you see fit for a beginner? i dont mind the price or location, below are some links, they wouldn't need to be from the sellers below, I'm open to other suggestions or sellers on ebay. I want to thank you for your time and saving me from buying the wrong instrument, i will not forget your kindness.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/frcfra2011?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FINE-OLD-FRENCH-STRADIUARIUS-VIOLIN-see-VIDEO-ANTIQUE-922-/311783631094

[ozustun]

2 hours ago, Trenchworker said:

I am not sure from your posting if you bought this violin to try your hand at repairing, or you will have someone repair it.  If you intend to repair it yourself, it will take you a while to learn some techniques.  One of the most difficult is repairing the button, which Franciscus points out is broken.  It will require opening the violin and making a plaster of paris mold of the back as well as grafting on a new button.   I see some long cracks on the spruce top, which can be repaired with glue and cleats once you have opened the top.  I do not see any cracks in the areas of the sound post or the bass bar, which is good, but you need to inspect it carefully after you open the top.  The peg box does not seem to have any cracks, either, but you need to inspect it more carefully.  The edges have missing pieces, but likely have no effect on the tone so the violin can be played without repairing the edges unless you want to do a thorough job.  I can not tell anything about the alignment of the fingerboard from the photos.  As pointed out above by others, you need to make a new bridge, put new strings, and possibly new pegs and/or peg bushings if any of the pegs are misshapen or cracked or wobbly in their pegholes.  And of course, cleaning of the surfaces.  I don't suggest re-varnishing it, as it will lose its aged look and lose some of its authenticity, regardless of what kind of violin it is. 

Perhaps you paid more than the violin is worth, or more than you should have, but this is your first experience and if you are enthusiastic about it, you will learn much from repairing it.  From what I can tell from the pictures, it is only the broken button that would discourage me, for example; the other repairs are more common, but will still take you a while to learn.  And when you succeed, you'll be proud of yourself.  Echoing Jet Jetson, good luck with it.

I really didnt expect someone to be so kind and generous over the internet, if you were close by, i would offer more than just a thank you. 

I was very naive indeed. your comment was one that made me really rethink my purchase, and i managed to retract my bid. The seller was really very unhappy.

As someone experienced, could you point me towards the right direction, or even the right violin you see fit for a beginner? i dont mind the price or location, below are some links, they wouldn't need to be from the sellers below, I'm open to other suggestions or sellers on ebay. I want to thank you for your time and saving me from buying the wrong instrument, i will not forget your kindness.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/frcfra2011?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FINE-OLD-FRENCH-STRADIUARIUS-VIOLIN-see-VIDEO-ANTIQUE-922-/311783631094

 

[MarkBouquet]

I don't doubt that the seller was not pleased. I'm pleased though! I'm glad that you were saved from this mistake. One of the important lessons here is "don't buy a violin on eBay," unless you really know what you're doing. The overwhelming odds are that you'll get taken.

[jaguarjim69]

10 hours ago, clearsky said:

Don't tell me. Let me guess. This seller doesn't accept returns. It's not worth restoring, and the seller is laughing all the way to the bank. Why didn't you ask for advice here before you blew 400£ on this. If you can return it, do it.

E BAY  WILL FORCE THE  SELLER  TAKE THE  ITEM BACK IF IT IS NOT AS DESCRIBED 

[franciscus]

5 hours ago, ozustun said:

thank you so much for your reply, i managed to retract my bid. The seller was really not pleased. As someone experienced, could you point me towards the right direction, or even the right violin you see fit for a beginner? i dont mind the price or location, below are some links, i want to thank you for your time and saving me from buying the wrong instrument, i will not forget your kindness.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/frcfra2011?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FINE-OLD-FRENCH-STRADIUARIUS-VIOLIN-see-VIDEO-ANTIQUE-922-/311783631094

Retracting the bid is much more easier job than the return of something that you already received, do not forget. eBay is dangerous jungle - if you intends to buy some violin there, you have to be prepared, in most cases, to do a neck reset, glue the unglued seams and few cracks and to perform complete setup (if you are lucky, this list should be the complete list). If you cannot to do that by yourself, or you do not have all tools and material needed, my advice is to stay out of eBay. Or, you can try to find one of a few really honest sellers and see whether you can make the deal with him. Just for example, bestrinx is one of them.

[Herman West]

Ozustun, congratulations for getting out of this deal. That socalled Kotz looks very bad.

You don't mention whereabouts you live, but it would be much better to look for a an old starters violin in your area, so that you can at least inspect it in person before buying.

Of course the initial price is higher when you go to a violin shop, but buying an old cheap violin from a private person off the internet usually doubles the sale price because you have to get it in playing condition. 

You were figuring on bringing this Klotz to a violin repairer. If you had an address in mind for this job, why don't you go there and check out the instruments on sale there? And never mind what kind of label is inside an old violin; those are almost always fake!

[ozustun]

5 hours ago, Herman West said:

Ozustun, congratulations for getting out of this deal. That socalled Kotz looks very bad.

You don't mention whereabouts you live, but it would be much better to look for a an old starters violin in your area, so that you can at least inspect it in person before buying.

Of course the initial price is higher when you go to a violin shop, but buying an old cheap violin from a private person off the internet usually doubles the sale price because you have to get it in playing condition. 

You were figuring on bringing this Klotz to a violin repairer. If you had an address in mind for this job, why don't you go there and check out the instruments on sale there? And never mind what kind of label is inside an old violin; those are almost always fake!

i live in London, and i did have a walk around the violin shops here, but they're incredibly expensive, most beginner violins starting from £400-500. So my idea was to buy a decent one.  And currently i'm in search for a violin that doesn't need any refurbishment. So its consuming my time and energy... as you said, many of them can and will be fake.

[Trenchworker]

18 hours ago, ozustun said:

I really didnt expect someone to be so kind and generous over the internet, if you were close by, i would offer more than just a thank you. 

I was very naive indeed. your comment was one that made me really rethink my purchase, and i managed to retract my bid. The seller was really very unhappy.

As someone experienced, could you point me towards the right direction, or even the right violin you see fit for a beginner? i dont mind the price or location, below are some links, they wouldn't need to be from the sellers below, I'm open to other suggestions or sellers on ebay. I want to thank you for your time and saving me from buying the wrong instrument, i will not forget your kindness.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/frcfra2011?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FINE-OLD-FRENCH-STRADIUARIUS-VIOLIN-see-VIDEO-ANTIQUE-922-/311783631094

 

I didn't do anything more than most others on this Forum; I am glad it was of some help.  You are new to the Forum, but if you stick it out you will find that almost everyone will have bad things to say about Ebay instruments, mostly from experience.  Most of us would agree that one takes a big chance buying something sight unseen, even with lots of photos.  Especially if you decide to bid on an instrument, starting out okay but ending with much more than you might have been willing to pay due to "watchers" who up the bids little by little, then a lot all at once.  I had one good experience on Ebay recently because I did not bid, I bought it outright, it was in my price range, it had an open back seam, various cracks, I expected to do a lot of work on it, and in fact I bought it to practice my repair skills.  It was half-size.  The seller paid for shipping and described the condition of the German-made violin accurately, as I found out after it arrived.  It was lost by the shipper but the seller tracked it down for me.   I think my good experience was not typical.  "You pays your dime and you takes your chances", as they say.

All that being the case, you ask me about other Ebay instruments, and my suggestion is forget Ebay, I take it that you want a violin you can play right away.  I agree with the others on this forum that buying from a private person, with the chance to see and hear the instrument, is a good way.  Another better way would be to inquire at one of 4 or 5 violin-making schools in this country (or outside -- I do not know where you are located).  Their students are required to make a number of instruments, most of which belong to the school afterwards, because the schools supply the wood (usually of very good to excellent quality) and other materials.  The schools usually sell these finished instruments at lower than store prices.

Or you could rent one from a local maker or shop, with the option to apply your rental payments toward a purchase, or keep renting until you find the violin that makes your heart beat fast.

[GeorgeH]

You might check with private sellers on Craigslist. At least you can see and play the violin that you are interested in, and many times these sellers will come down in price significantly. I'd recommend looking looking up some standard measurements and taking a ruler with you so you can check them. Also, look down the fingerboard for warping.

https://london.craigslist.co.uk/search/sss?query=violin&sort=rel

My rule of thumb is to assume $300 additional to the price of any violin I purchase privately for a new bridge, sound post, and fingerboard plaining. 

Now, on eBay: I have had very good luck with Song Violins purchased directly from China. I always assume they will need a $200-300 proper set-up (new bridge, strings, sound post adjustment, and fingerboard plaining), but they generally sound very nice for student or even intermediate student instruments. 

http://stores.ebay.com/Charming-SONG-Violin-store/4-4-Violin-/_i.html?_fsub=957326014&_sid=695128804&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

I do not have any affiliation with this store, but I have been very happy with 3 violins that I ordered for students from them, and I know of 3 others who have received nice instruments from them. They are shipped directly from China. Again, plan on the $200-300 for proper set-up, but you can get a really nice violin for your purposes for under $500 from them. They have over 8,500 customer feedbacks and 99.5% are positive. These violins are a lot less expensive and just as nice as the equivalent instruments that you would pay 1,500-2,500 retail for from a dealer (in my opinion). Their high-grade carbon fiber bows are also quite good, and you won't need to pay extra shipping if you buy one with the violin. I don't recommend their lower-grade bows.

They accept offers on their violins, too, so don't be afraid to try that.

Again, and to emphasize, I am only speaking from my experience and I have no affiliation with them.

 

[MarkBouquet]

16 hours ago, jaguarjim69 said:

E BAY  WILL FORCE THE  SELLER  TAKE THE  ITEM BACK IF IT IS NOT AS DESCRIBED 

Yes, but only if it's not as described. Many less than honest sellers are very clever about leaving things unsaid, so they can argue after the fact that there was nothing dishonest in their description.

[ozustun]

after visiting several luthiers i was running out of options, because they were asking for ridiculous prices for Chinese made violins. it seems to me that violin stores care less for beginners, and value customers that spend £1000's, its sad. Then i came across Hobgoblin, and as i walked i was greeted by a small family of violins, old, new and so on. i walked out with a "John G Murdoch &Co Maidstone" it cost me £500, and after arriving home and doing some research i noticed it may have been a bit overpriced, however the instrument has a certain warmth to it. Im sure its more than 100 years of age, and has outlived its previous owners, im sure of it. It is my first violin, and ill make sure to engage my soul whilst playing it thank you all for commenting. 

[Rue]

I am happy you found a friend! I would love to see some (nice clear) photos of it. 

[Trenchworker]

24 minutes ago, Rue said:

I am happy you found a friend! I would love to see some (nice clear) photos of it. 

Me, too!

[franciscus]

12 hours ago, ozustun said:

i walked out with a "John G Murdoch &Co Maidstone" it cost me £500, and after arriving home and doing some research i noticed it may have been a bit overpriced

I don't think so.  £500 is rather decent price for properly setup Maidstone violin - what you have is one sturdy, dependable instrument, made with the students in mind. Good buy, I'd say and good luck to you!

[Stadiravius]

10 hours ago, franciscus said:

I don't think so.  £500 is rather decent price for properly setup Maidstone violin - what you have is one sturdy, dependable instrument, made with the students in mind. Good buy, I'd say and good luck to you!

Yeah agreed, especially on the dependability of these