antero

Casparo da Dutzend ?

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Dear Maestronetters,  once again –

A Reasonably Good New Year to all of you , first of all.

But now: Pegbox forum is about instruments.

This allows me to think of putting out another instrument without hesitation, as the beginning of the year has been kind of slow.

I mean - it seems that nobody is is risking his life savings on ebay...

What I will ever  present, are all mine, and already for some time: crappy or good - all restaured as necessary, in decent playing order, and often – if that is the case – rented out to students or professionals (sic!) (thats why I have all the exteriour photos).

Now I have taken a few more photos, occasionally, in order to facilitatate your further assessment: WHAT is it and WHEN and WHERE was it made. :)

Have fun and please comment, I really like it, in whatever way  you choose to do it!

Regarding endoscope photos: poor as ever, but to mention. linings are not let into blocks – linings are rather sharpened or cut finer before the block. But all of them present.

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I've spent the morning taking picture like yours for the ID process. 

The end pin arrangement of mine (with the wide ebony inset) is identical to yours as is the lack of a drop down saddle.

But my reason for writing is to enquire about the endoscope. Do you have one?  Did you remove the end pin to take those internal pics?

Thanks

Glenn

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GlennYorkPA: yes, I did use an endoscope - rather a very primitiive one, as i believe.

And I did not remove the end pin - if I did, and inserted, e.g.  extra light (which I did not possess !!),  I would have got perhaps a better interiour view...

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I'll throw in a comment. I would guess Saxon 2nd half of 19th century, maybe later. I like the looks of it, looks like it was more carefully built, far better than most, makes you think that it might not be Saxon, but I'll still stick with that. The only thing I don't like is the scroll, for some reason I don't like scrolls that have either less or extra turns

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I do not think it's Saxon, mostly because of the rib joints, but I also do not think that the corner blocks were there from the beginning. Just my two coins.

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I like it.  Lovely wood, nice varnish, tastefully decorated.  Purfling looks like it might be scratched and inked, button is broad and looks indented.  Not Saxon, but maybe British? :)

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In m eyes a Vogtland Dutzendarbeit around 1900 with the usual screw driver antiquing, purfling with narrow middle stripe (all real, not scratched, just bleached as we discussed recently) and the usual scroll for those "Da Salo" called type. The rib joints are just cut back or it's made with an external mould, nothing unsual for the period.

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BF, I agree for the most part, but those rib joints look more to me like they were (as Jacob would say) Cramped together when glued.   Sure looks like those ribs joints clampled together from the outside.  Definately carefully filed down.  So much of it speaks Mark, but other parts don't.  I'm over my head............... Can you speak more to the point you make of using an exterior mold in the Vogtland area.  I always considered the  "around 1900 Dutzendarbiet" to be BOB.  Help me understand what I"m missing.  

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2 hours ago, Jeff White said:

BF, I agree for the most part, but those rib joints look more to me like they were (as Jacob would say) Cramped together when glued.   Sure looks like those ribs joints clampled together from the outside.  Definately carefully filed down.  So much of it speaks Mark, but other parts don't.  I'm over my head............... Can you speak more to the point you make of using an exterior mold in the Vogtland area.  I always considered the  "around 1900 Dutzendarbiet" to be BOB.  Help me understand what I"m missing.  

Dear Jeff,

you're right that they used mostly the BOB method there in the assumed period, but with the beginning 20th century the use of an exterior mould was established in the Vogtland, too, a sort of assimalation to standards and influences from outside the region.

For this particular violin, I won't dare to give an exact date by the photos, could be from 1890 as well as 20 years or more later.

The rib corners are showing mostly the end grain of one rib only, what points more to the use of a mould, while the BOB/clamping the rib ends would feature both end grains visible, sharpened with mitre or cut of flat.

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That makes sense as I've seen alot of early 20th C instruments from this area that look to have not been made BOB, but have inserted CB's.  I've focused alot on the contour of the rib corners to make sense of the rib construction, but I guess that someone  could  make an  outside mould with severe sweeps in that area too.

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Well, thank you all a lot for opening up! ^_^ 

(I am not probably very good at using the emoticons...)

But now, I can hardly add much to the discussion regarding the exteriour (or not?), but I might try to employ the endoscope once again, and - perhaps witb extra light - get something clearer from the inside.

I am not by any means opposing (how could I, having seen the contemporary work) the idea. that at some point Mk/sch declined from their tradition of BOB.

One more observation: no idea, why the neck graft was done (if the instrument is so recent) but to me it seems, tha it actually was done - wood structure suggests the actual cut...

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6 minutes ago, antero said:

One more observation: no idea, why the neck graft was done (if the instrument is so recent) but to me it seems, tha it actually was done - wood structure suggests the actual cut...

Can you post the picture of that part?

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30 minutes ago, antero said:

Well, thank you all a lot for opening up! ^_^ 

(I am not probably very good at using the emoticons...)

But now, I can hardly add much to the discussion regarding the exteriour (or not?), but I might try to employ the endoscope once again, and - perhaps witb extra light - get something clearer from the inside.

I am not by any means opposing (how could I, having seen the contemporary work) the idea. that at some point Mk/sch declined from their tradition of BOB.

One more observation: no idea, why the neck graft was done (if the instrument is so recent) but to me it seems, tha it actually was done - wood structure suggests the actual cut...

Lots of reasons why an instrument from this time and place could have a scroll graft. Just doesn't mean much. I've had many.

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I am away from that instrument for a couple of days, but when again at hand, I will post the close-up of the supposed cut area.

Meanwhile, a perhaps just slightly better view of the lower treble block. I have no idea, what was done there, but I have some other (contemporary fractional, I think?, cant check at the moment) violins with linings over the blocks.

Picture here might give an idea, that linings were also here over the blocks and at some point blocks were "cut free" ...? One way or another, but is not that block partly behind the lining?

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Linings over the blocks are a typical feature for external mould construction, what confirms my post above (in oposite to inserted linings at internal moulds).

It's often found in Mirecourt violins, what the OP clearly is not, mostly the ends more pointed.

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Thank you, BF.

I don't think that the scroll graft is really very important or decisive, so before I may take a few more shots: the pegbox closeup shows in my opinion rather nicely the cutting lines and different wood.

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5 hours ago, Blank face said:

Linings over the blocks are a typical feature for external mould construction, what confirms my post above (in oposite to inserted linings at internal moulds).

It's often found in Mirecourt violins, what the OP clearly is not, mostly the ends more pointed.

Interesting, I have rarely seen the linings over the blocks (at least a small  amount, like these pics), and that's interesting to know.  What I have seen, in what seems more 1950's to 70's, is the lining going completely over the CB's.

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I bet Schoenbach, around 1910 - 16. I have seen some  of them even signed inside on belly, clearly remember one particularly nice (of course if comparing with another Schoenbach violins) by Johann Schaeck , 1916.

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Thanks!

I have somewhere one from Schönbach too, that is actually labelled - Joseph Müller, if I remember correctly. Rather nicely done, but varnish has darkened.

Very fancy label, some royal symbols, underlining that the maker was K.u.K. authorised master, etc :)

Well, this one has its very predictable label too: "Caspar da Salo in Brescia", but this does not explain anything, thats why I did not even post it here.

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All right, a couple of views of the neck/pegbox cut area.

One thing I definitely learned during this thread - the best for clos-ups is the oldest and most primitiive of my cameras - the one with the display smaller then a post stamp...

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No, it really does not mean much – this was already agreed before :)

So lessons learned - (besides the camera for close-ups) dutzendarbeit is not necesaarily BOB with fake graft; it may have one-piece back and rather tasteful decoration.

Well maybe this was not dutzend after all, and these were sold in e.g. sixpacks? ;):D

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